Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:02)
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life. How to move your mom and still be on speaking terms afterward provides in depth conversations with professionals, older adults and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you. Well, go to our next episode of How to Move Your Mom and Still Be On Speaking Terms Afterward. I am so happy to be with my dear friend and colleague, Todd Emrick of The Wheaton Group. Thank you Todd, for being here with me. I really appreciate it.

Todd Emrick: (00:54)
Absolutely. I'm very excited to be here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:56)
Oh, you're so great. Let me tell you a little bit about Todd here. My guest Todd Emrick is a 24 year industry veteran of the moving industry. As The Wheaton Group's Director of Customer Service, he has expertly shepherded clients from one end of their move to the other. Given that The Wheaton Group is the fourth largest household carrier in the United States, this means Todd gets a lot of phone calls, both from clients and professionals like me, move managers and members of the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers, NASSMM for short.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:33)
Todd goes out of his way to help his clients through experiences where the unimaginable sometimes happens. I can personally attest to the fact that he has the patience of a saint, is the common voice amidst the chaos of one of life's biggest upheavals, and has a killer sense of humor that can make you spit your scotch when you're having drinks with him. So Todd, you are the best. So what's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

Todd Emrick: (01:59)
I have to go back to my youth, long, long time ago.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:04)
Not that long.

Todd Emrick: (02:05)
Where they had the farm and the family was always on the farm. Everyone was there, cousins, your uncles, your aunts, every Sunday everyone would go to my grandparents for a big family dinner and everyone would hang out. And that to me is the meaning of family, and that's what I think about when I think about my grandparents.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:27)
Oh, how wonderful. It's such a bucolic scene.

Todd Emrick: (02:30)
It is.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:30)
Whole family around the dinner table at the farm. I love that. Beautiful image. So let's talk about what it is about moving older adults that's so different from other moves.

Todd Emrick: (02:42)
Absolutely. I think it becomes much more complicated because one, you've got multiple players in the process. Many times you have the adult children that are trying to manage the move from another state. Sometimes you have senior move managers who are working to facilitate the move. You have a senior community that is trying to work the process for their own specific needs. So you're trying to put all of this together, make it one seamless process, and it can become quite complicated for not only me, but especially the older adult and the kids.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:26)
So what is distinctive about your approach when you're dealing with those sorts of situations?

Todd Emrick: (03:31)
I try to educate everyone on the process and what their options are. You're the customer. You are the one that's moving. These are your items going on a truck. I want to make sure that you understand the process and one, are good with it, and two, it fits into what your needs are because every person truly does have different needs.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:53)
Every situation is different. What do you love about your job? Aside from the fact that it's never boring.

Todd Emrick: (04:01)
It is never boring. In the 24 years that I've been doing this, I learn something new every week, and that's one of the things I truly love about it. And it truly is a group of committed people. Most of the people that have been in the moving industry have been doing this for many years, so they're experts in their field, but they truly understand the value that we bring to a customer and how important it is, and I love being around that group of people.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:28)
I think a lot of people forget that movers are people too. Your drivers, for example, what's top of mind for them?

Todd Emrick: (04:35)
They want to provide an efficient experience for their customer. Remember, they've got multiple families on the truck, so if we can make sure that this move goes quick, efficient, without any problems, they can get back on the road and start moving on to their other customer. So it's planning, making sure that they know what's going on, making sure the customer knows, and everyone can get in and out.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:59)
And sometimes that's a little trickier than other times. Without being too specific with names, we'll protect the innocent, what kind of things can happen?

Todd Emrick: (05:09)
You have delays. As I mentioned, you've got multiple families on the truck, and as that driver is moving across the country, if there is a problem on one shipment, it has a domino effect.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:22)
Sorry, when you said multiple families on the truck, I thought of people on the truck. It's partial loads, partial loads from different families and so there are different stops sometimes along the way.

Todd Emrick: (05:31)
Correct.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:31)
So please continue.

Todd Emrick: (05:33)
Absolutely. Yeah, that driver is picking up and delivering multiple shipments as he goes across the country, so if there is an issue with Mrs. Jones' shipment, that could potentially affect Mrs. Smith, who is two cities down the road. So we can either make up that time or we could potentially have a delay on our hands, and that becomes very stressful for everyone involved.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:57)
And what can cause those delays? There can be the weather, but also having to drive around massive fires, we've got a big one going on in Northern California right now. But also, I'm assuming there can be blown out tires, big winds that topple trucks, or accidents and things like that sometimes.

Todd Emrick: (06:16)
Traffic. In the south you have hurricanes that we have to deal with every season, like you mentioned the fires out west. Mechanical failures. These guys put 100,000 miles on a truck like that so ...

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:28)
Wow.

Todd Emrick: (06:28)
At this point, you've got to make sure that you've got routine maintenance and you're trying to do that maintenance while you are also maintaining your schedule. So it becomes a balancing act to make sure that you're getting your maintenance in, you've got your safety checks in, because they are regulated, so there's a lot of things that go into play.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:49)
I can only imagine, because I know from our perspective as the move managers, there are so many things you need to juggle. I think what really needs to be understood here is that every situation is unique and different. There are different people involved, different dynamics, different amounts of household goods, who's doing the packing, which we like to discuss packing by professionals versus families.

Todd Emrick: (07:14)
Sure. And you and I have had this conversation what? Every year, past nine or 10 years. You want to make sure that you have a professional job completed on your packing, especially when you're dealing with those sentimental or high value items. Let the professionals do those high value items, those fragile items, and if you want to be price conscious, go in, you can do the pots and pans, the books, the clothing yourself. Ultimately, if that box gets bumped around, it's not something that is fragile or breakable, it's a book, not something that's going to shatter.

Todd Emrick: (07:52)
And that leads into the coverage that we provide in our industry because of this if we are doing the packing and you're electing the higher level of coverage, then that item is covered. If you're doing the packing, it will limit the van line's liability or any van line's liability against damages. We don't know what's in the box, we don't know the preexisting condition of those items, so you need to be aware and not think you're saving money, but in the end, creating a mess for yourself on the back end to work through.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:23)
It's really worth the investment. There have been times when we've had clients who are moving either interstate, in other words, not locally or across the country, and they haven't invested in the insurance and it's rare, but sometimes something breaks.

Todd Emrick: (08:38)
Limited liability coverage, what you get at no additional cost is $0.60 cents per pound per item. You take a look around your house, you're not going to be able to replace anything for that amount of coverage.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:50)
Yeah.

Todd Emrick: (08:51)
It is not only peace of mind, but it is certainly an assurance that if something happens, you have a process in place with that van line to work through and bring a resolution to the damage.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:04)
So when you purchase the bigger insurance plan from The Wheaton Group, for example, what all does that entail and cover?

Todd Emrick: (09:13)
Sure. And I have to point out it's not insurance, it's valuation.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:18)
Thank you for clarifying that.

Todd Emrick: (09:20)
Absolutely. We are self funded so it's a declaration of value that you're providing for your goods. You would file a claim, it goes over to the claims department. With the higher level of coverage, a claim representative would come out, they assess the damage, report back to us. Then we take a look, if it is in fact transit related damage, at repair replace or cash settlement.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:44)
Got it. That's very helpful because I think people really get confused about that, so that's definitely something you want to discuss when you're moving to find out what the costs are and things like that, and then realize it is an invest because you can have a very valuable painting that's maybe 8 inches by 10 inches and might weigh a pound and a half or two pounds.

Todd Emrick: (10:04)
Absolutely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:05)
And $0.60 on the dollar is not going to cover, that's for sure.

Todd Emrick: (10:09)
If you do have high value items, the industry, we do provide a form for you to outline those because it may be limited at $100 per pound, so you want to make sure that you're declaring your high value items and you may want to go and be a little bit proactive, maybe get an assessment on what they actually cost so if something does happen, you've got some documentation of the value of that particular piece.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:36)
Yeah, we were once moving someone, it was local, but he had a couple of Chagalls, a Renoir. You have to realize, for example, those figurines, a lot of people like Lladro, or you have some crystal figurines that have fingertips.

Todd Emrick: (10:49)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:49)
Or little thin pieces that come out, we have to wrap each part of those completely. You have to be so careful for those so that they don't break at all.

Todd Emrick: (10:58)
And going interstate, we would probably recommend to create those.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:02)
Even if they're small?

Todd Emrick: (11:03)
If you're looking at something of that high value, yes. I'm going to give you what it would cost to crate because it's going a thousand miles.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:12)
Yeah.

Todd Emrick: (11:12)
Make sure that that is protected.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:14)
That's a really good point. Can you explain what you mean by crating?

Todd Emrick: (11:18)
We have third party companies that we work with and they would actually come out and build a crate specifically for those items, just like the van lines, they had their own network so they would have someone come out on the front end, they would crate it up, at destination they would have another technician come out and uncrate the piece for you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:38)
This brings up a very important point. If someone is moving, how far ahead should you start to plan?

Todd Emrick: (11:45)
The typical rule of thumb is 30 days.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:48)
That won't cut it.

Todd Emrick: (11:50)
The last couple years or anything, the typical. Absolutely. I'm going to say at least 60 days in advance you need to be calling your moving company, and even at that point, they've probably been working with a senior move manager or the senior community well in advance of that. Bring in all the players as soon as you can. Let me rephrase that, bring in the mover as soon as you know what is moving.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:16)
Yes.

Todd Emrick: (12:19)
Important part, the wait. So if you're not sure of what's moving yet, it may be a little premature to bring us in, but you can still do your due diligence and start shopping around, doing some research on different companies.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:32)
And also begin the sorting process. Work with a professional, like Clear Home Solutions, my company, or if you can do it on your own, which is wonderful, and you have help from family and friends, that's fantastic. I would say start 90 days beforehand, that way you will not be completely stressed out, and remember, that moving actually is one of the top stressors in the life. It's right up there with death, divorce, and moving. I don't call it relocation, I call it dislocation. Emotionally, you're going to feel at a joint until you're settled in to your new home for probably about a month.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:06)
When I have clients who are just so stressed out and nervous and they don't understand why they're feeling this way, I just say, "You're moving. This is normal. It stinks that you're feeling this way, but it's normal. And on the other side of this, you'll feel better. You're feeling dislocated right now. That's what's going on." And at least they don't think they're going crazy. This is part of moving, that big emotional feeling.

Todd Emrick: (13:27)
You bring up a good point. It doesn't end when everything gets into the truck. Now you've got to wait for everything to get there, so you've got to be prepared while you wait. Where is mom staying? Is she going to stay with you? Is she staying in a hotel? Do you have enough clothes for that transit time? Keep in mind, it could be up to two weeks before the goods are actually delivered, and that's without any delays. So you want to make sure the medication, the documents you need for closing on the new home, whatever you're going to need to survive, that's going to have to stay off the truck and go with you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:03)
Also, be aware that unless you're moving locally, you'll be given a delivery window.

Todd Emrick: (14:10)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:11)
Once things are getting on the truck. Sometimes we have people who are moving cross country who will say, "Well, it has to be there on such and such date."

Todd Emrick: (14:18)
Right.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:18)
And that can't be guaranteed if you're moving out of your local area because you just never know what's coming up, plus if your load is a partial load, they need to wait until the truck is filled up and then they'll go.

Todd Emrick: (14:34)
More and more senior communities are requiring that. A lot of them I work with have limited appointments per day for deliveries, one or two deliveries per day.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:44)
Right. That's right.

Todd Emrick: (14:45)
So what I have started doing is having all of our goods delivered into our local destination agent, turn around, use a smaller vehicle that can actually navigate those streets, and then make the delivery at the appointed time.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:01)
And you bring up such an important point because depending on where you're living before you move or where you're moving to, if it's a narrow little highway or street, a big truck can't make it down there.

Todd Emrick: (15:14)
So we use a smaller truck. We could rent a U-Haul or a Penske, one that can actually navigate the street that's a little bit lower in height. The goods would then be shuttled to that over the road truck, where the driver would then take it onto the next location.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:29)
Because sometimes you have overhanging tree branches, so these are just things to keep in mind and to kind of look around where you are when you're starting to think about moving.

Todd Emrick: (15:40)
That's one of the great things about the in home surveys versus a virtual survey. Virtual surveys are great, don't get me wrong, but with an in-home survey, you actually have a salesperson that is driving the route that the driver is going to be using to get to your location and they can actually understand how is he getting there, where is he going to park? That's one of the things that I truly think are missing out of the virtual sites.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:03)
And that's so important, isn't it? If for any reason you do end up doing a virtual survey, do yourself and the moving company a favor and take a video out to your main street, if you live down a long driveway or on a small street, so they can actually see what the situation is. And in the event they have to shift things like that.

Todd Emrick: (16:22)
Right.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:23)
It won't be a big surprise on move day.

Todd Emrick: (16:25)
Yeah, and keep in mind too. Google Maps only goes so far. And some of them, they are in trucks that can be up to 85 foot in total length and getting them in and out in hilly areas, short turns. Sometimes we just don't know until the driver attempts to pull up to the house, and then at that point we need to shift to plan B and get that smaller vehicle in play very quickly.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:53)
And that can cause a delay.

Todd Emrick: (16:54)
It can. Absolutely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:56)
Yeah. What do you wish people knew about what you and your drivers and such do that they might not know already?

Todd Emrick: (17:06)
I think, one, you need to understand what we can, and I think more importantly, what we can't or shouldn't do, talking about those high value items. Stop, let's talk about those and make sure that they are created, and you do have documentation of the value of them. Wine collections, understand that these trucks are going over the mountains, through the hills, and are going through temperature changes, pressure changes. So you need to be aware if you are moving large collections, high value items, let's stop and have a conversation with the salesperson first before it gets down the road, and then we are trying to fix something.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:49)
It's just like anything else, good prep means a better outcome. It's not always a perfect outcome because there's always hiccups. It's like a wedding or any big event, there's always some hiccups, but that way you've done as much as possible to prepare yourself for a successful move. Wheaton has a training program, I believe, for its drivers regarding the special care one has to take with older adults. I think you helped to create that. Am I right?

Todd Emrick: (18:16)
Yes. Myself and people much smarter than I actually put it together. Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:23)
No one is smarter than you, Todd. No one.

Todd Emrick: (18:26)
Thank you. But it actually goes beyond the drivers. It's an entire program that takes not only a driver, but your salesperson, the manager at the local agent, and the crew leader. Because there are so many people involved, we want to make sure that they truly understand as a whole what's going on. How older adults actually manage things different. Do they take their medications in the morning? Do they go to bed early? These are the conversations that need to be had, and the training teaches you to have with the customer well before this all starts. Because if this isn't documented, if this isn't laid out and coordinated in advance, it's not going to happen. This is going to create the chaos that you're trying to avoid.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:11)
Well, and it's so difficult because people are moving from their homes of 40 and 50 years.

Todd Emrick: (19:16)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:17)
They haven't moved since the 1970s or even 60s or 80s maybe, and it's so different now. And then on top of it, I literally had a client once say to me, this is a little gruesome, but she said, "I feel like I'm moving to the place I'm going to die."

Todd Emrick: (19:36)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:36)
Because she was moving to a community. And frequently with older adults, and family members need to be tuned into this, that may not be what they're consciously thinking, but it's going on somewhere in the back of their mind. So there's a lot more care one needs to think about when speaking to them about their things and where they're going. This is a really emotional time, and sometimes a frightening time for them. If they have dementia, even early stage dementia, there's usually some sun downing, so that means later in the day their cognitive abilities are not as strong as they are earlier. So when you're moving, and also if you're working with a move manager to go through items, do it earlier in the day, usually between about 10 and 3:00 PM, because you want people as present as possible and it can be an exhausting process, that whole sorting and move day is exhausting for them especially.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:34)
I imagine when they're actually getting estimates, they're meeting with the representative from the company, they need to ask as many questions as come to mind because there are no stupid questions when it comes to moving quite honestly.

Todd Emrick: (20:48)
No. No, absolutely. And understand, the estimates that we provide can be really complicated, so take the time to sit down and go line item by line item through this with your salesperson so you understand what this particular charge is. And I cannot stress this enough, when they tell you some, "Oh yeah, we can do that." Get it in writing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:10)
Oh, yes.

Todd Emrick: (21:11)
You're verifying everything that is said in writing. That way there is a clear line of communication of what was said and what the expectations are.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:20)
That is so helpful, and especially when you're sitting there and maybe they use some moving terms that aren't obvious, don't be shy about asking them to explain what such and such means. People often think that movers unpack and set up your home, and that's not really their job.

Todd Emrick: (21:39)
No, absolutely not. So unpacking in our world is taking everything out of the box and laying it on the first available flat surface. That would drive me crazy. I would rather either have someone come in to do a turnkey or leave it in the box and where I can manage the unpacking on my own at my speed without it just being all laid out in chaos.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:02)
Or like you say, turnkey, hire a move manager who can put everything away.

Todd Emrick: (22:07)
Absolutely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:07)
And I want to say too, have a floor plan. Have a floor plan.

Todd Emrick: (22:12)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:12)
Honestly, we do floor plans for our clients and we tape it up by the door as the movers come in, we can say, "Okay, that sofa goes over there in that room on the left wall." There's always a little more tinkering when you get on site, always, but at least there's a plan to start with. It's so important. Make sure you put together a floor plan, you'll be so glad you did.

Todd Emrick: (22:33)
And as a mover, we actually appreciate that. That goes back to the efficiency. That driver wants to come in, get everything unloaded, and if you've got someone sitting there, "Maybe the couch should go over there." No. No, we need to keep on moving.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:47)
What question should people ask professionals like you, as they consider working with a moving company?

Todd Emrick: (22:54)
One, are they a mover? Are they a broker? Are they affiliated with a van line or are they independent? These are the things that you can use to find out really who you are working with. Is it an established van line? How long have you been in business? So you want to start understanding who these people are.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:14)
What's the difference between a moving broker and an agent?

Todd Emrick: (23:17)
Take Wheaton Van Lines. We are the interstate carrier and we are made up of agents. They are independently owned and operated companies, so if you're doing a local move, they are doing it under their own name, their own authority. They come to us and run under our authority for interstate moves. So that's what we as the van line provide is that interstate hauling authority.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:39)
And the broker?

Todd Emrick: (23:42)
The broker is a guy that is sitting in an office complex somewhere that is taking your information, giving you a price, and then selling that to other moving companies, the people that actually have the trucks.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:58)
Oh.

Todd Emrick: (23:58)
So you don't know who is going to show up on the day of your move.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:03)
Well, that's the problematic.

Todd Emrick: (24:05)
You can go to protectyourmove.gov. This is an arm of the federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration that oversees our industry.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:13)
Oh.

Todd Emrick: (24:14)
You can contact this person for their motor carrier number or their US DOT number. You can input that into the website. It'll tell you one, how many trucks they have. There's a dead give away, if they're trying to move you and they have zero trucks, that's not good.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:28)
That's not very good. Right. Right.

Todd Emrick: (24:30)
I would also ask them what's their physical address. I'd love to come see your warehouse. So if they don't have a physical address, that's a dead giveaway that that's actually a broker.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:42)
That makes a lot of sense. So yeah, definitely working directly with someone from the actual van line. Todd, I've got to ask you, what's the toughest part of your job?

Todd Emrick: (24:51)
So it's talking to customers and telling them that there is a delay and working through those issues. We have everything they own and now their new life that they're transitioning to is, as you said, being disrupted again.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:06)
Yeah.

Todd Emrick: (25:06)
They're not able to move forward to their next chapter. Emotions run very high.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:13)
Yeah.

Todd Emrick: (25:14)
Especially if the delay is more than a day or two, and it does happen, especially if you do have a truck that has a mechanical failure, that becomes very hard.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:25)
When there's a mechanical failure, it could be out in the middle of "nowhere" so they have to wait to get the truck fixed. They can't just offload the goods when they have a very large truck.

Todd Emrick: (25:38)
We can try to do that sometimes. Particularly this year, there's no other trucks to be found. When something does happen, it's hard to recover at this point.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:49)
Let's say somebody's moving cross country, in terms of the delivery window that they're given, is that about a week long? Is it 10 days long? What is it?

Todd Emrick: (25:57)
It depends on the size of your shipment. The larger the size of your shipment, the more space you take up in the truck, the more you can command that. If you have a smaller shipment, say you're moving to a one bedroom in a senior community, you've probably got a window of seven to 14 days. That's a lot of uncertainty for an older adult in the family. Be prepared. Please tell your mom and dad, "This is the window." Not that, "The truck is going to be there next Thursday. It'll be fine."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:23)
It's a little trickier working with clients with dementia, but when your parents have all their faculties, don't sugar coat it. Not that anyone is ever average, but can you give us an idea of the average weights and costs and that sort of thing?

Todd Emrick: (26:38)
Absolutely. We took a look at all of our survey respondents 55 and over. The average cost for a move was $6,900. Average mileage is 1,100 miles. So we're talking cross country moves or mid country at least, and the average weight was 8,200 pounds. So that's a lot of stuff, that rolls into a large financial factor for the customer.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:06)
It's an investment and be aware of that, and you don't want to go with the cheapest mover, even locally when you're moving locally, make sure they have insurance, liability, and workers comp, because you want to make sure they're using employees and not subcontractors that they just pull in on occasion. I have told so many friends, first of all, it's silly that they don't ask me for recommendations. Hello, this is what we do. And then if I find out they've hired a mover, I say here's a list of questions I want you to ask them, and it's often about insurance and employees, and now I'm going to add broker and agent, because it's very distinctive. I always call you, so I don't worry about that.

Todd Emrick: (27:48)
Right. Use your connections. Absolutely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:51)
It's kind of like a doctor.

Todd Emrick: (27:53)
Right.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:53)
You want a good recommendation. So just so everybody knows ...

Todd Emrick: (27:57)
And a good outcome.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:58)
Yeah, and a good outcome. Absolutely. Everything is still intact and ready to go. So Todd, your contact information, and thank you so much for sharing it with our audience, will be on the How to Move Your Mom and Still Be On Speaking Terms Afterward website, and that website is HowtoMoveYourMom.com. Thank you, Todd, for taking the time out of what I know is a very busy day. I'm so grateful to you.

Todd Emrick: (28:23)
Thank you again for having me.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (28:27)
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom and Still Be On Speaking Terms Afterward. Please visit HowtoMoveYourMom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:02)
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward provides in depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you. Welcome to our next episode of How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward. I have the honor of being with Alison MacCracken of Sotheby's Realty and the MacCracken team. Thank you so much for being with me, Alison.

Alison MacCracken: (00:53)
Oh, thank you for having me, Marty. It's a pleasure.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:56)
Oh, you're so great. Let me tell you a little bit about Alison. Ranked among the top 1% of realtors across the U.S. and well known around the globe as well. Alison MacCracken's knowledge of real estate knows no bounds. Trust me. As a realtor with Sotheby's International Realty, she built The MacCracken Team, which serves all of Los Angeles county. And it's a big county. Because Alison has a very special place in her heart for old adults and their families, each of our team's realtors is a certified senior real estate specialist. Which means they're all experts at working with those who are 55 years old or older.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:35)
There are important implications for older adults. So that's why that certification really means something very important, and we're going to discuss that in a few minutes. Alison also serves as a founding board member and vice chair of Westside Pacific Villages, a nonprofit dedicated to helping older adults live out their years in their own homes by galvanizing the community around them. There's a larger village movement that's nationwide that Alison's also involved with at both at the local state and national level. It's just remarkable. All of that, and she's the daughter of aging parents, so she really gets this, a loving wife and a very devoted mother. Alison you're remarkable. Just [inaudible 00:02:18] thank you for finding time in your schedule. Oh my goodness. So talk to me about your favorite memory of your grandparents.

Alison MacCracken: (02:26)
Well, I only grew up with my mother's father, my grandfather, who we referred to as pops, my other grandparents had passed on prior to me being here. So I had a very strong bond with my grandfather. And my favorite aspects about my grandfather was advice he gave me. And two that really stick out are always travel is the best education. Anytime you're given an opportunity to travel, just say, yes, just go. And the other one was, it doesn't matter how you believe just as long as you believe. The importance of recognizing how small we really are in this big universe and that we're really not in charge. And it really right sized me as a child and as a member of the community.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:11)
That's wonderful. And especially, it's about acceptance too of other people and their beliefs. We are very small. I like to go out sometime to just look at the stars when I'm stressed out. It's like, I'm very small part of this. What do you love about what you do?

Alison MacCracken: (03:25)
I think at the end of the day, we're really about quality not quantity. And even though we happen to have quite a bit of quantity right now, the relationships we build with our clients are truly, they are lifelong. We make a difference in their lives, whether it's the adult children or the parents themselves, and we form friendships. Most of my clients are all truly now my friends, if they haven't passed on. And so that's the best part. It's always a different story. It's always a different client. Everybody's needs are slightly different. But at the end of the day, the service we provide and the quality of the relationship is really what I enjoy.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:03)
You have such a warm personality, so it's just natural that people want to stay in touch afterwards. Fantastic. Now, how were you drawn to working with old adults and their families?

Alison MacCracken: (04:15)
Real estate has always been my sixth sense. And so I knew that real estate was my calling professionally. But in order to really fulfill my heart, I had to combine working with what I'm very passionate about. And that's protecting seniors. Some people are passionate about protecting animals or less privileged children. For me, it's always been about protecting our elders, and I was lucky to find a way to blend those two things, the real estate and seniors.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:45)
You can really go home at the end of the day knowing you really made an impact on someone's life, especially in this very hot real estate market. What does it take to make a home safe and comfortable for people to live out their later lives in?

Alison MacCracken: (04:58)
There's a lot of different aspects depending upon the home itself. Are there trip hazards? Are there two stories? Is there a place to put in an elevator? Is there an easy way in from the garage to the front door? Is arthritis an issue and the windows are too difficult to crank open? So there's so many different things that go into deciding, how to stay home, if you should stay home? And then creating a safe environment. And it's not just safe, it's really important to create an inviting environment. There's nothing more depressing than being faced with a disability on a regular basis. So we really strive to look for solutions that eliminate the need to be reminded that we're aging, because we're all aging. And it's really frustrating when we have to face that reality. So if we can eliminate that in our homes, then it really leads to just a happier life.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:52)
Growing old is wonderful because you get all this wisdom, but then come the aches and pains. That's what's really awful. Now, you brought up in terms of disabilities, you have a sister who is considered special needs. Those with special needs, they and seniors can benefit from some of the same modifications and things in their home. Right?

Alison MacCracken: (06:11)
Absolutely. Yes, my sister was unfortunately paralyzed from the neck down. And we had to go through modifying our homes for her physical disabilities. And we learned so much through that process. The physical changes aren't necessarily the worst part, it's the emotional side of it. And so, to be able to recognize where we can minimize the emotional impact is really, I think the most beneficial part of it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:37)
That's fantastic. And you are also a very active member of the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, correct? Because of that?

Alison MacCracken: (06:44)
Part of it. Yes. We definitely support so many causes that kind of circulate around how we've been touched through our lives, whether it's leukemia or Alzheimer's or anything really.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:54)
And I'm wondering too, people think of the ramps going into the home. And if you're remodeling your home, especially your bathroom, just make it great for aging in place. Just a walk in shower, no little rim. What other things can they do?

Alison MacCracken: (07:08)
So zero threshold showers are a perfect example of a way to modernize a bathroom without having it obvious that there's something that you're having to step over. Wider hallways. If you're going to do a major house remodel, I would recommend consulting somebody that specializes in this. Because it doesn't have to be for someone who's aging, it could be actually just for anybody. And the benefits of it are going to be more natural light, better placed fixtures, easier fixtures. Everything is really designed to simplify your life. Forget worrying about walkers and wheelchairs, also consider what life would be like with my young child. Getting a stroller inside a house or in a certain area is not the easiest thing to do. So the universal design approach benefits everybody, not just people that are aging or have a disability.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:58)
I find it so interesting. Because as a realtor, you're helping people sell their homes and move out with them. And yet with your involvement in the village movement and Westside Pacific Villages, you're really all about keeping people in their homes as they age. Talk to me about that. Because that's very interesting. It's kind of a paradox in a way.

Alison MacCracken: (08:18)
What's in interesting is that 95% of older adults want to die in their homes. They do not want to leave. They do not want to go to an assisted living. Assisted livings are fantastic and they are very beneficial for multiple people. But the majority of people want to age in their homes, age in place. And there's nothing better than allowing somebody to do that. Now the village movement is basically neighbors helping neighbors. So imagine taking out your trash cans in LA, they can get so heavy if you really fill them up. And that's a major fall risk for a senior or someone who's broken their leg and they can't do it themselves. So we coordinate, let's say, the high school students to come every week and take out your trash cans and put them back. Or we have hair and nail day. So, on Fridays, we round everybody up, pre-COVID, and we take them all out.

Alison MacCracken: (09:07)
It's just good old fashion neighborly values that we've been able to implement. And the interesting thing about it is, yes, it's a way to keep people in their homes longer and happier, but it creates a thriving community. And then those communities become more desirable to move too. So when people are moving from one location to another, whether they're migrating to be closer to their grandkids, now people are seeking out areas that have villages so there's built in support right away and new friends and places to volunteer and services to be provided. Whereas before, everybody was afraid to make a big jump because they didn't have something just to plug into.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:47)
And also because, Los Angeles, especially, we tend to feel very disconnected from our neighbors. It's a very odd experience coming from Buffalo, where we all knew each other so well. And I can only imagine how everybody feels more connected in that community because of this. What did it take to launch Westside Pacific Villages?

Alison MacCracken: (10:06)
Well, we started the process almost 12 years ago, and then we officially opened our doors 10 and a half years ago. So there was a lot that led up to opening, a strong board, identifying the membership prior to opening, funding, office space. But it's funny, 10 years ago, that that was a long time ago. And if you fast forward now to the different pieces of technology we have, as well as COVID and the impact that has left on us, is people desiring communities. Launching a village can be very quick, I feel like these days. And part of that is by using things like Facebook groups to just create a micro village, maybe just your street. Maybe now your street is all on a Facebook group page, and you're all watching out for each other. Because that's, at the end of the day, all we do. We just watch out for each other. I feel like we've come a long way in the past decade with technology to help fast track creating villages.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:04)
And with Zoom having forced us to work remotely, so we're more comfortable also meeting remotely. Which can really help facilitate meetings and things like that. And taking less time because you don't have to be in the car. And if you're in LA, you're in your car all the time. If you're not meeting remotely, it's such a pain. What is the overall village movement all about?

Alison MacCracken: (11:26)
It's about aging in place. So it started back in Boston, in Beacon Hill Village, in 2005, I believe. And it was a bunch of neighbors that got together that said, "We're not going to lose our independence as we age. We're going to band together. We're going to look out for each other. We're going to enjoy our retirement years. We're going to travel together." So it was really this combination of a social club, with a little bit of building security, friendships, ways to stay engaged in the community to combat isolation. And so, I think the real main points of a village are to feel connected, to feel safe, and to thrive in your home. To really prolong being able to stay independent for as long as possible.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:11)
This makes me think that what kinds of areas are good for a village, whether it is urban, urban suburban, rural, what do you think?

Alison MacCracken: (12:21)
They're all over. There's suburban, urban suburban, rural. Each village has different challenges with whether it's geography or technology, wifi out in some of the rural areas is really difficult, transportation. LA is very big on transportation with our membership. Whereas in other areas like Boston or New York, where there is public transportation and it's commonly used even into your later years, transportation isn't the number one request. So every village reflects the needs of the community. So we don't shovel snow out here in LA.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:00)
We do in Buffalo.

Alison MacCracken: (13:03)
In Buffalo that might be one of the services that the village provides, is making sure your driveway is shoveled or whatever it may be. So it's very organic, it's grassroots as a national movement. We come up with different ways of fundraising and board combinations and so forth. But at the end of the day, each village is very unique to the neighborhoods they serve.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:26)
You know as well as I do, that social isolation is a huge part of developing dementia. It's so important to really remain engaged. And I can only imagine how the village movement can really keep people engaged because they have people coming to visit. But also somebody might say, "I know so and so down the block, do you know her? Because she actually went to the same school you did, or was a member of the same club, you need to meet her." So that can really mitigate that feeling of being so isolated that's such a concern.

Alison MacCracken: (13:58)
Absolutely. And interestingly enough, before COVID we were getting together four times a month. So, once a week we'd have coffee and conversation, we'd have a seminar, we'd bring people out, we'd have some sort of activity to bring people together. But then with COVID we had to quickly shift. So we started with a lot of daily phone calls, and then we would go out to people's porches and talk through windows, and then eventually with masks and different things, then we would drop off gift bags. Once a week we would go and we would drop off gift bags that were donated by different people in the community. And it would be something very similar, maybe just like a gift certificate for a cup of coffee, but it allowed that time to connect with the seniors. And to this day, it's the most appreciated event of our village.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:45)
What a great thing to get a goody bag once a week. Who doesn't love that? And a visit. That's wonderful. I want to get back to your work as a realtor, because you are obviously fantastic at it. And I would like you to talk about all the benefits of working with someone who is a certified senior real estate specialist.

Alison MacCracken: (15:04)
I think the most important piece is, when you work with a good SRES, and it's very important to interview and make sure you are working with a good one, is that they understand certain financial ramifications as well as the emotional side of going through a stressful process, such as moving and leaving your home.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:23)
Can I quickly ask you one thing, you said, be sure they're a good one. What are you looking for to determine if they are really good at what they do and really concerned about old adults and their families?

Alison MacCracken: (15:33)
First off, of all of your clients, your transactions in the past year, how many were related to seniors or did you work directly with seniors? So is it 50%? Is it 10%? Is it really, truly their main mission in their real estate experience? And then the next question is, do you work with estate planning attorneys? Or who are your resources that you use in a transaction that may help us? You may already have those resources. You may already have your estate planning attorney and maybe an in-home care provider, but you need to hear that they have theirs as well for referral purposes. Because that's a really tell tale sign if someone's truly invested in the benefit of someone who's aging.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:20)
That's one thing about you Alison, you are very well connected. And it's really having those estate planning attorneys, knowing the care managers, the caregivers, knowing the difference between those two, et cetera. But let's talk more about the tax and financial aspects of people who are 55 years and older and selling their property.

Alison MacCracken: (16:39)
So, in California, when you're 55, then you're considered a senior, which is way too young, but it [crosstalk 00:16:46]

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:45)
It really is.

Alison MacCracken: (16:46)
Take this one, but be grateful because it's a good one to be younger. So there's certain tax perks. So those allow you to transfer your tax base. So real quick, imagine you bought your home 30 years ago for $100,000, you're paying taxes on the base of your $100,000 purchase. Now, fast forward, 30 years, your house is worth $2 million and you want to sell your house and buy another house, because maybe your current house is two stories and you want to go to a single level. So you're going to sell your $2 million house, and then when you go to buy, let's just say, your next $2 million house, because you're in the same area, same market, you're able to transfer your tax base from the $100,000 to your new home. So, it's huge. But if you don't check off the right box on the sales forms, you'll miss it. That's what we excel at, in making sure people understand all of these benefits when they're over the age of 55. The ability to sell and transfer your tax base, there's a lot of pros to it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:46)
When I would hear those things come up in meetings and I thought, what's that? And it may have been you who finally explained it to me. It's something to be so aware of when you're older and selling your home, whether it's here or I imagine in other states as well, they have certain benefits?

Alison MacCracken: (18:01)
In other states as well they do. They're all different. I'm currently researching a bunch of different states right now as we look at people rolling out of California and investing in other states, and trying to identify where are the best perks for seniors. Like in North Carolina, if you're over the age of 65, there are tax breaks and so forth. So, every state is different. Every probably city and county is different. So you definitely need to ask whoever you're hiring, what do you know about this? And this step of tax basis, maybe selling a home actually isn't the right thing to do. Maybe leasing out a home is the better approach. If someone's approaching death, we want to wait until someone passes away before we actually sell a home. But the devil's in the details. And so we know our details.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:45)
Especially with someone who is really touching the end of their life. You don't want to completely disrupt the home environment, unless you absolutely have to. Sometimes people need to go what we call here, board and cares. So something like that to have that 24 hour attention. But if that's not necessary, or if you can afford an in-home caregiver, wonderful. And that way it's not so disrupted and they feel more comfortable in their own home. You pay such close attention to your clients. I know that makes you and your MacCracken team very distinctive, but what other things are very distinctive about what you do?

Alison MacCracken: (19:21)
Oftentimes realtors come in right before a sale, they get the house ready, they put it on the market, they sell it, and then that's the end of your time with them. For us, [inaudible 00:19:31] on average are involved in our client's lives between two and three years. I've had some going on eight years or 10 years right now, because this is usually the last move. This has been the family home. It's a huge decision. So it really takes a lot of time and thought. We're also dealing with people that are a little bit more frail. So we bring in different specialists to help with the move, with the process of clearing out 70 years of memories, is very overwhelming.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:58)
Been there.

Alison MacCracken: (19:59)
Yeah. You know.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:02)
Yeah.

Alison MacCracken: (20:03)
And that really does actually lead in to our great relationships with our clients because we're not pushy. We're very conscientious of the emotional side of it, the physical side of it, the other family members involved and the financial pieces. So there's a lot of patience involved.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:20)
And really building those relationships and understanding what is important to that individual client.

Alison MacCracken: (20:26)
Oftentimes there are a lot of differing opinions, where mom may feel, I'm completely fine staying in my home, but the son who is across the country is not comfortable with her staying in the home for his own fears. And we can create a solution where she stays in the home and makes him feel comfortable, which allows her to stay in the home longer. He feels good. It was only because he was unaware of the solutions that are out there. So that really helps keep people in their homes, which, eventually, we sell them. But if we can keep them there longer, it's better.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:01)
And part of the details that Alison can include are, for example, if someone is moving, any modifications that need to be put in, and we've talked about this briefly already, but it's putting in the bathrooms, maybe some ramps, making things really accessible, like even kitchen faucets.

Alison MacCracken: (21:19)
Kitchen faucets, people don't think about window handles and door handles and placement of light switches, height of counter tops. One of the most important things I find which everybody wants, so put it in any home, is just smart, organized storage. And I know you can appreciate that, Marty.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:37)
I sure do. Yes, I do.

Alison MacCracken: (21:39)
Pantries with pullout shelves. Things that aren't so high you need a step stool to get up to the top. Really trying to keep things at waist height as much as possible, great storage spaces, because typically you're usually downsizing from a larger home to a smaller home. So, the linen closet, the pantry, the garage is very well organized. Invest in great cabinetry. You don't need as much space as long as it's organized properly. And so it's just-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:08)
I could not agree more. It's interesting because you talked about making things about waist height, what we do, and I think this is good for anybody, is to organize the everyday items, things that you use up to once a month, certainly daily and weekly, organize them between about shoulder height and about mid thigh height. Things that you rarely use, holiday dishes, also just stuff you want to keep but may not use, we're all a little like that. Put those in the upper shelves and the very bottom shelves. Because that way, maybe just once a year you have to pull it out or get somebody to help you pull it out, makes it much easier. Also, make sure there's plenty of space in between furniture. Because those are sharp corners, easy to fall on. Also, you were talking about the wider hallways, who doesn't love higher hallways and just plenty of room to ambulate. God forbid you trip and fall on something, you don't want to hit the corner of that furniture. It's amazing what you can do to make things more comfortable.

Alison MacCracken: (23:03)
Definitely. And if you are in the process of looking to buy a new home or even build your own home, I mean, we work in all price ranges from 500,000 to 50 million. So we have clients that can design whatever they want, but sometimes they aren't even thinking down the road 20 years, or even if you break a leg or something. Design a house where you know where you would put an elevator should you need it one day rather than having to install a chair ramp. It's very easy to stack closets on top of each other and then know that one day that's where the elevator can go in. A lot of the newer homes now are really thinking about these things.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:41)
I know you're also working on remodeling your own home for aging in place. Everything's very accessible.

Alison MacCracken: (23:47)
Yeah. Maybe I created it in my mind, but I'm having to have a hip replacement in the next couple of months. I'm not your standard age to need a hip replaced.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:56)
I was going to say you're so young for that, but it happens.

Alison MacCracken: (24:00)
It happens. You break legs. Thankfully, we live in a single story home where I didn't have to think about, how am I going to get up the stairs to get to the shower. So we are designing our home, remodeling it, with the intent that people can come and see how we've designed it should they ever want to replicate it, kind of be a model home. So, wider hallways, lots of natural lights, skylights, ramps that you would never really think, "Oh, this ramp was designed for someone in a wheelchair." Just it's a beautiful, "Why didn't people do this before?" Type of thing.

Alison MacCracken: (24:33)
I guarantee you getting the groceries in the house are going to be a lot easier. And then where the laundry room is, where the storage is, how the bathrooms are designed, the types of windows we choose, the way we design the landscaping and low maintenance and front porches. Front porches to me are super important in staying connected with your neighbors. Being able to go out front and sit and wave, hi, to your neighbor while they walk by with their dog. I might not be able to physically go walk right now, but I can at least participate in the community that way. So, all sorts of things that don't scream out, I need help. Just great smart ways to design a house that really makes you feel alive.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:16)
And is welcoming. And you mentioned the baby strollers. So it's easier for parents with very little kids.

Alison MacCracken: (25:24)
Dog strollers, most people have dogs now with dog strollers. Even luggage, those of you that travel a lot. It's just smarter. At the end of the day, it's just smart design that benefits everyone. And sadly, only 4% of homes in the United States are actually accessible to people with disabilities. So there's a huge market out there.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:47)
Especially if you're a contractor. Hmm.

Alison MacCracken: (25:49)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:50)
It's interesting because you mentioned that you work with homes that are worth $500,000 and homes that are worth 5 million. For people who don't live in Los Angeles-

Alison MacCracken: (25:58)
50 million.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:59)
50. I'm so sorry. 50 million and up. For Los Angeles, 500,000 is the lower end of real estate. That'll get you a condo at the most. I want to explain that because there are a lot of listeners who will be out in more rural parts where $500,000 is a lot. What's the toughest part about your job especially as a realtor?

Alison MacCracken: (26:21)
For me personally, the hardest part about my job is when I meet clients and then and I go into the meeting where I know it's the last time I'm going to see them. So, recently, we've said goodbye to two ladies that were moving to Boston to be closer to their kids. And it's sad because they know it, and we know it, that wherever they're moving to is likely going to be their last destination, and also leaving their family home typically of decades is so emotional. And so just to be a part of that experience, that's the hardest part. But you just want to say, "No, you can say as long as you want."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:03)
Don't go.

Alison MacCracken: (27:04)
But you don't always get those choices, but that's the hardest part.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:09)
They bought their home, as you say, decades ago for a very low price. And you had mentioned somebody bought a home for $100,000 and now it's worth 2 million. Yes, that happens here in Los Angeles. If they bought it 40 years ago, it's amazing how much the proper rates have gone up. And you are an expert at handling all this you and your MacCracken team. Just wonderful. Thank you so much for finding the time to squeeze this interview into your schedule. I really appreciate it, Alison.

Alison MacCracken: (27:35)
Well, thank you, Marty. We love working with you on our projects. It's really an honor that you had me on your podcast and I really appreciate it. So, thank you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:44)
You are so welcome, and it's always great to work with you too. Thank you so much for listening to, How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:00)
When the time comes, who'll create a care plan for you or your loved one? And who'll be in charge of implementing said plan? Moving your mom, or your dad, or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:26)
How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:51)
Today I get to talk to a dear friend and colleague Brenda Shorkend, of Shorkend Care Management. Hello, Brenda, thank you for being with me.

Brenda Shorkend: (00:59)
Hi, thank you. It's an honor to be here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:01)
Well, thank you for saying that. And let me tell you a little bit about Brenda. Brenda's worked with many hospital and community organizations, including Huntington Senior Care Network. She studied rehabilitation psychology, I'm going to ask you about that, Brenda. And she's also a member of the Aging Life Care Association. She is an incredibly strong advocate for her clients. I have witnessed it because we've shared clients together.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:28)
And she focuses on maximizing her clients' independence and autonomy while still ensuring their safety and wellbeing, which is so important. So Brenda, what's your favorite story about your grandparents?

Brenda Shorkend: (01:43)
Probably my favorite story is the one about my grandmother who was a bit of a witch, and she had reasons. I mean, she had a difficult life. She had many reasons to be a witch, but once she got dementia she forgot that she was a nasty person. So this was when I was a teenager. Every Saturday, she and my grandfather would come over to my parents for lunch, and every Saturday she would get ice cream for dessert. And every Saturday her eyes would light up like a little girl, "Ice cream, my favorite dessert." And that was something that taught me at a very young age that people who have cognitive impairment can actually sometimes enjoy things more when they're sick them when they were well, in which is a huge paradox.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:27)
Yeah. I had a friend whose father-in-law came down with dementia and beforehand, he was like your grandmother, and then afterward he had a smile on his face.

Brenda Shorkend: (02:36)
And she forgot that she had a chip on her shoulder, she forgot that her life had been awful and she became really nice.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:43)
And in her way she started enjoy it, especially the ice cream. I'm with her. So I do want to ask you, what is rehabilitation psychology? I've never heard of that before.

Brenda Shorkend: (02:52)
I was actually brainwashed during my studies to look at a person wherever they are. If they've lost a leg, if they've got bad memory, if they have terminal cancer, whatever bad thing has happened to them, what can we do right now today to improve things? Not to cure, but to improve things and make life tolerable.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:15)
Yeah. Just so that they too, like your grandmother can enjoy their parts of life that they're able to enjoy. So let's talk about the focus of your profession and of your own personal work, because I don't think a lot of people understand the difference between a caregiver and a care manager, very different.

Brenda Shorkend: (03:33)
And I should actually call myself an aging life care professional rather than a care manager, because almost everyone is calling themselves a care manager now. Is that we are a unique profession where we are people who are trained in a variety of backgrounds, with me it's psychology other people it can be social work, nursing, occupational therapy, physical therapy, gerontology. And we are trained to work in a holistic faction with people.

Brenda Shorkend: (04:00)
Most of us work with older people, but I for example, also work with people with special needs, developmental disabilities. We are the person who overseas and organizes. I don't do hands on care. I make sure that the family or the person has a plan and looking at the big picture, providing the support, whatever it is. I used to joke, "Oh, I can even find a dog Walker." But yeah, then the next day I had to find a dog Walker, because I never know.

Brenda Shorkend: (04:30)
Someone like yourself, a senior move manager, a professional organizer, an attorney, a CPA, a caregiver. So we do many different things, and each of us slightly different, I would say, take on how we do our work, but it's not the hands on work. It's the overseeing and the coordinating, and I really pride myself at pulling together really good teams.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:54)
Yes, and I'm honored to often be among them, so thank you for that, because you're superb about what you do. With the care, they're really the ones directly administering the care day after day, is that correct?

Brenda Shorkend: (05:06)
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:06)
And as a care manager, you're really the quarterback or the coach ... It's really the coach overseeing everything and the players are on the field with the caregivers.

Brenda Shorkend: (05:15)
It depends, because sometimes I'm the coach, but sometimes I'm the coordinator, or the overseer, because I have clients where literally my role is providing the family with some direction and some advice. And then I have clients where literally I am the one that knows, how is this person? What time did they wake up this morning? Did they take a shower? How much did they eat?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:38)
Did they take their medications?

Brenda Shorkend: (05:40)
Did they take their medication? Going with them to the doctor. And I also occasionally do assessments for the court. And that's the one that's the most fun, because-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:48)
Oh, why's that?

Brenda Shorkend: (05:50)
Because then I can be completely objective. I don't have to be nice to anyone, I am only making recommendations that are in the best interest of the client. And if both sides get upset with me, I know that I'm doing the right thing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:06)
We all love the easy jobs, but frequently look, when families get along really well miraculously, they don't need us because they can take care of the situation on their own. They have enough people, people live nearby. So it's no wonder that we often get the problem cases.

Brenda Shorkend: (06:27)
But, I think in a way the clients who give me the most satisfaction are the ones where maybe I only meet them once. And maybe I don't even meet the older person or the person with the special needs. I meet with the people involved, the daughter, the son, the spouse, the neighbor, the cousin, we all meet together. And since COVID, I've been doing a lot more on Zoom, I help them come together and think in one direction and then they don't need me anymore. They couldn't manage before because everyone was going off in a different direction with unrealistic expectations, or a lot of pent up frustration with each other, and good families-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:05)
Well, because in that case you're probably a bit of a referee, but you're also the professor teaching them, and the guide, the shepherd, teaching them about what they need to do. It's so important that people be heard during these times, especially when it comes to their fears and hopefully not too much angry stuff, but they need to be heard.

Brenda Shorkend: (07:25)
It's also a lot of frustration between siblings. I mean, I learned from you to talk about the ... Your phrase, the designated adult, right?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:33)
The DA, right? The designated adult.

Brenda Shorkend: (07:35)
There's always one kid who's in charge whether they want to be or not, and then the other kids are upset with him by definition. And a lot of that is just hot air, and if it's clarified people could move forward. I also want to add in most of these situations, the good daughter isn't so good, and the evil daughter isn't so evil.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:54)
People have all kinds of motivations. What do you wish people knew about what you do?

Brenda Shorkend: (08:00)
That I can help people six months, two years, 10 years before the disaster, you don't have to wait for a horrendous crisis to get help. And if you yourself are planning, then this will help your adult children or the other people, or your spouse to then when you need help know what to do.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:19)
They're completely hit by fear and don't know what to do about it.

Brenda Shorkend: (08:22)
It's not just fear if someone is in the hospital and has used up all their savings and is at the end of their reverse mortgage, and now what are we going to do with him? We are probably five years too late for something reasonable. I'm not saying there isn't some kind of solution, but the good solution is gone.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:44)
So, it's easier to attain and find a good solution if you plan ahead?

Brenda Shorkend: (08:50)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:51)
Not only getting your estate plan and your trust, you're going to hear me say that in practically every episode. Like your healthcare directive, get all that done now no matter ... As long as you're an adult, get it done. And also be aware that if you haven't planned, it's going to be so hard on your family, and especially you're talking about the finances. People often have to scramble to pull together anything. And in my opinion, I've seen that people have to do GoFundMe pages to keep people alive, but that's the state of our healthcare system here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:24)
It's so important to have that together and to name a really competent DA, a designated adult as your trustee, as your executor, power of attorney, make sure it's somebody who's really competent and who you talk to about it. Talk them through it because especially with an executor, if somebody dies and suddenly the executor is the CEO of the whole estate-

Brenda Shorkend: (09:51)
I had a client recently where I sat with his wife and his daughter and we read through his advanced healthcare directive. And I was trying to help the wife understand what his wishes were, because right now he wasn't at a point where he could express what his wishes were. And she understood what was written something completely opposite to what the daughter understood, because it wasn't really ... And so what is written isn't so important, what's important is when I started having the conversation with her, "Well, what would he want right now? Would he want a feeding tube? Would he want to go to a nursing home for rehab? Would he want to go home? Which of these are we talking about right now?"

Brenda Shorkend: (10:37)
Let's say someone who's 92. I mean, I have a client like that right now. The client is 92 who has kidney failure and heart issues and let's add diabetes for fun and then they get pneumonia. So what do you do? There are people who just choose to stay home and let this take its course. There are people who know will go to a hospital and want to be treated, but what if they don't get better? You can do a lot of things. You you can put them on a ventilator, you can start with tube feeding, you can do a bunch of things. And it's very similar to what's been have with people who've had COVID of course. People who are younger and stronger, it might be worth it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:23)
There was an article recently about the dangers with drug interactions. Is that something you watch out for?

Brenda Shorkend: (11:29)
Of course. So I'm not a nurse, I'm not a doctor, but I certainly know how to look at the medications because if there's some medications there that's maybe should not be taken together.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:41)
They don't get along very well. Yes.

Brenda Shorkend: (11:42)
They might. I mean, again, sometimes there's a very good reason for a person to have these medications, it's not necessarily wrong, but then the doctor needs to say explicitly, the reason why they're taking these two medications is because we don't have any other option. So first all I would go with primary care physician, and if they're able to do their reconciliation, the drugs, then it's fine. But you can obviously, just go to the regular pharmacist, or if you need more of an in-depth consult, especially if it's complex medications, it might be a geriatric pharmacist, a geriatric psychiatrist, someone who can really look at the drugs at the interactions

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:16)
And understand them. Yeah. And no one it's really a time to be concerned about that.

Brenda Shorkend: (12:20)
I haven't emphasized yet talking about all the bad stuff, I like to help families sort out the bad stuff come to a point where people are doing okay, and then look at quality of life. So then we start weighing, staying at home, moving somewhere, taking 20 meds or taking three meds, going back to the hospital for every little exacerbation of their COPD or deciding to maybe be at home on palliative or hospice care.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:49)
What do you feel is distinctive about your service?

Brenda Shorkend: (12:54)
Well, first of all, I advocate really strongly for my clients. Someone said to me the other day that I don't let people push me around.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:01)
You don't. So they think they might because you had that wonderful British accent and I'm sure people just think, "Oh, she'll be a pushover." Little do they know you are a powerful advocate.

Brenda Shorkend: (13:12)
So, so what I say to people, when come in to a situation let's say the son or the daughters ask me to meet with their parents. I say to them, "You have to understand, obviously I'm taking your lives and your abilities into account. I'm not going to go in to recommend things you can't do, but I'm advocating first and foremost for your mother. And if you want your mother to go into an assisted living because you can't sleep, that's not a reason. The point here is, is it safe for your mother to live in her own home? And does she have the quality of life there? Maybe she really doesn't need move." And many people, and we saw this a lot during COVID became so lonely and isolated.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:49)
Yeah, which is the great contributor to dementia as we know.

Brenda Shorkend: (13:52)
And depression and just general decline. I also think it's very important, if someone is thinking of moving that they move early enough. If there's someone in their seventies who's saying, "I don't know if we want to move into an independent living community or not." Don't wait till it's too late.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:14)
Don't wait till you fall and break a hip, don't wait for the heart attack.

Brenda Shorkend: (14:18)
Because the independent places work for people when you've already built community, if you're living in your home and your friends have moved away, and your friends are dying, or just getting older and you feel that you need more community, that's the time to move and create a new community.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:35)
People make a whole new batch of friends. There are all these wonderful activities. Yeah.

Brenda Shorkend: (14:40)
I had a client, for example, who moved in when she was very, I would say young, and vibrant. She started a movie group, and they played bridge every week, and a bunch of things. And then she started having issues, but because she had friends, her friends made the effort, they'd come to the room to visit her. They wouldn't wait for her to come to bridge. They'd come and encourage her to come out and do things with them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:10)
It's interesting too, because nobody has to get in their car and drive to you. You're up one floor via the elevator or you're on the other side of the building, so it's possible to just walk there and check on your friends. And a lot of friends just do check on each other, it's really quite lovely. It really is.

Brenda Shorkend: (15:27)
But of course, I mean, moving into one of these communities is very much like going to college. It has to be the right fit.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:33)
It's like the college dorm. And that's where somebody like [Sue Pamaran 00:15:37], who is in her first episode, who does placement that she knows all the personalities of the different communities and what a good fit for the client would be, which is so important. Are you living there? You're living there, it's your home, so make sure it feels like a good neighborhood for you.

Brenda Shorkend: (15:56)
And that's of course something to take into consideration if you stay in your own home and if your neighborhood is changing. If you lived on the street with people and you all brought up your kids together and everybody's staying and basically aging in place together, it can be a real good thing, but if there's been this huge turnover and you're the matriarch of the street, and no one talks to you, the important point for me is there's no hard and fast rules.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:24)
You are very adept at putting great teams together here. When it came time where things were happening with your parents back in Israel, did you put teams together there to take care of them? How did you go about that?

Brenda Shorkend: (16:39)
Well, my father died the week I turned 30, so he was very sick for most of my twenties. And my mother who was a doctor, was the one who actually pulled together the care that she needed. And I learned a lot from her, including putting together hospice for him before there was even such a thing as hospice. So that's my dad. When my mother started having problems in her late eighties, we had the whole dynamic between me and my brother, that you have a lot of the time between a long distance caregiver and a local caregiver.

Brenda Shorkend: (17:10)
And of course, I'm the oldest sister and I'm the expert, and he's the little brother who never listened anyway. And I ran away and left him, holding the baby, et cetera, et cetera. And you have to work with that and you have to be aware of it. I managed to convince him to hire a care manager like myself, because he was calling me about every two months. "Okay. I'm going to pay for a ticket. You have to come." And I would say, "I can't solve the problems in a week or two weeks, you need someone to help you." And he finally, I mean, the best thing we did was to hire the care manager who brought in the caregivers and help my brother oversee things. And then she was also someone that I could communicate with as much as I needed to and actually provided her with a lot of training. So I was telling her what to do with my mother, but it wasn't me with my mother.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:57)
Right. That makes a big difference. The families to family is still butt heads over things like that.

Brenda Shorkend: (18:03)
And so they went to a really important medical appointment about whether she should have surgery like a big deal. And they went in my brother, my mother, the care manager, and I was on the phone. And I thought it went really well. I mean, they asked the doctor questions, they got all the pros and cons, as they're walking out, my brother still has his phone on. And I hear my mother say, "I'm never going to an appointment with you again, you talked over me, you didn't let me ask questions. Next time I'm going to Rachel," the care manager.

Brenda Shorkend: (18:32)
So I'm starting to dance here, because that's what we want as a family. We want our parent to feel that they have an advocate, and who listens to them and not these children. I mean, I changed your diapers. Why would I listen to you? And there's all the buttons that they know to press so that we then behave like seven year olds with them. And when you have the care manager in between, suddenly things can go much easier.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:01)
Yeah. The somewhat neutral third party, so to speak. Yeah. All of us who are in professions related to the care of older adults in later life, we often become that neutral third party who comes in and people will listen to. My father used to say, "Oh no. Oh no." To everything I said, and then somebody else would say it. "Oh really?"

Brenda Shorkend: (19:23)
So I also say to families, don't roll your eyes and say, "Oh, mom." Just say, "Oh, what a wonderful idea." And I know that you've asked them to do this for the past five years, but I'm coming in from the outside as a professional and they're going to listen to me, so just thank your lucky stars that they're listening. And if you start rolling your eyes and getting upset, then we're done and then we're not going to be able to do it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:46)
Yep. Oh, yeah.

Brenda Shorkend: (19:47)
So I almost do coaching with the adult children, and for the spouses, how to get things done the way you want them to be done.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:55)
Yeah. Yeah. And that need to be done. So I'm imagining, that's the toughest part of your job, is setting up the plan and getting everyone involved to respect that plan.

Brenda Shorkend: (20:08)
Yeah. Well, the only difficult clients are the ones where the people who have the responsibility don't follow through. So I've never had a client I don't like, even the one who cursed me and told me to get out of his house. I understood why he was upset with me. I didn't take it personally. But when it's the family member or the family friend or whoever it is, who has the legal authority to take care of the them and they just don't follow through, those are the ones that I have a hard time with.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:39)
Yeah. They are very difficult. So what are some reasons why clients or their families don't listen to your advice? Or what reasons do they give?

Brenda Shorkend: (20:50)
"Oh, I don't want to upset my dad."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:53)
Oh, yes.

Brenda Shorkend: (20:57)
"Well, yeah. I think it's a good idea, but I think I know my mom better than you do."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:03)
But you don't know how to take care of her better and understand the medical jargon and all that. I imagine acting as a translator for all the medical jargon and that sort of thing.

Brenda Shorkend: (21:16)
Some of it is, people are just overwhelmed. It's just too much, or they've been doing it for so long they're just burnt out. And that I completely understand, but the one that concerns me and it seems to be more typical in families where perhaps there was history of abuse, or at least some kind of bullying or very authoritarian behavior by a parent, the kids can't make the switch between dad who was impossible before and dad who's impossible now.

Brenda Shorkend: (21:51)
So I can give the example of my mother, my brother at one point got so sick of her behavior that he said to her, "I don't want to be your POA for finances anymore." So I was ready to kill him. That's a different issue, but why did he get to that point?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:05)
And let me just point out. I'm just going to point out that POA for finances is somebody who is the power of attorney.

Brenda Shorkend: (22:09)
That's the power of attorney. He was the one who was overseeing her finances.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:13)
Yeah. Thank you.

Brenda Shorkend: (22:14)
So she was declining and she was losing her language. What she was trying to say to him, I think is, "I want to be sure there's enough money in my account." What he understood is, "You don't trust me with handling the money." Because he was very stressed and overwhelmed.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:33)
And they're family, and they're family. He's assuming his mother is criticizing him.

Brenda Shorkend: (22:37)
And you see that in a lot of cases. I mean, not that my brother ever abused my mother, he didn't.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:41)
Basically right.

Brenda Shorkend: (22:41)
But they do get to the point where they abuse family members. Not because they're evil, but because they're at the end of their tether and don't know what to do with them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:51)
And especially with clients who have advanced dementia, that can be so frustrating. And it's not the person's fault who has dementia it's the disease. And that is so difficult. I wanted to ask you what questions should people ask professionals like you, as they consider working with you or someone in your profession?

Brenda Shorkend: (23:10)
So first of all, are you comfortable with them? I would just first of all, just chat to them and see whether this is someone whose personality is right for you. That's the most important. They're going to be involved in some intimate things in you and your family's life. Second of all, of course, what is their background? How do they work with their clients? How do they communicate with the families? What are their professional experience? Do they know what they're talking about?

Brenda Shorkend: (23:38)
I like to recommend people who are members of my national association, that's the Aging Life Care Association. There's a look up by zip code on the website where you can find aging life care professionals. You can also see whether they are certified or not, and if they're certified, that means that they're one level higher of experience and have been through some exams.

Brenda Shorkend: (24:02)
Number three, also nobody asks about liability insurance, they should. I would say if the person does not have a liability insurance don't work with them, cyber insurance for the same reason. In case any of my information is hacked. And just the fact that I have cyber insurance means that I understand that there's a risk and that shows that I'm taking things more seriously than maybe some other people.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:25)
And with cyber insurance that you're protecting their very private information.

Brenda Shorkend: (24:30)
And their privacy as well, that I'm taking it seriously.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:33)
So important. I'm wondering, because that makes me think about elder abuse and the different forms it takes. Do you encounter that? And what do you do about when you do?

Brenda Shorkend: (24:43)
First of all, if I'm working with the family, people who are looking to the future, I help them set up things to protect themselves from a lot of these things, make sure that they've been to the right attorney, that they have their documents in order, that they have someone who's keeping it, even if they're completely independent, someone else is checking on their accounts to make sure that there's no fraud in their bank accounts.

Brenda Shorkend: (25:07)
Putting together a lot of things to make sure that as a person gets older and perhaps they're declining in their cognitive abilities, someone is just helping to keep an eye on them. And then I often get referrals of very messy situations where someone is taking advantage of a person. I rarely work with awful physical abuse cases, it's just too difficult for me. There's a very good care managers who will do that. With me it's more the undue influence, the money disappearing, the son buying a brand new with mother's money because he has to drive mother to the once a month, those kind situations. And sometimes it's very subtle, and some of it is not on purpose.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:53)
Can you give an example? You're talking about subtle, what do you mean by that?

Brenda Shorkend: (25:57)
Well, for example, someone who thinks that it's quite okay to buy themselves a new car with mom's money because they occasionally drive her to the doctor or take her to lunch. And there's also the people who getting to the end of their tether and are just very impatient and can just shovel, push. And then there's the insidious nasty undue influence where someone slowly weasels their way into a person's life and takes over. And it can be a family member, or it can be a stranger, or it can be a caregiver, or it can be a neighbor. And those cases are difficult.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:37)
They can get very divisive very quickly unfortunately.

Brenda Shorkend: (26:40)
But it's usually, not in every single case, it's usually when a person has either isolated themselves or being isolated, or if you're part of a village, if you're part of a group of people, if there're a number of people looking out for you, it's less likely these things will happen.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:57)
Yeah. My dad had a whole cadre of friends who would come and check in with him and hang out with him, which was really lovely back in Buffalo, although [crosstalk 00:27:04].

Brenda Shorkend: (27:04)
But it's rare these days with everybody moving around and leaving.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:08)
And ones they're staying in Los Angeles. Yeah, which is where we are. It's a very different dynamic. That's such important information. And all the information Brenda you've given is so remarkable and helpful, and I just really want to thank you for being here and sharing your extraordinary knowledge and experience with me and everybody.

Brenda Shorkend: (27:28)
I just hope I have the energy to advocate for people for as long as I can. Thank you, Marty. It's been a true pleasure.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:38)
Thank you so much for listening to, How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode, and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:02)
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that. As are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:42)
Welcome back to How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward. For this episode, my guest is the esteemed attorney, Jamie Gonzalez. Jamie, welcome.

Jamie Gonzalez: (00:53)
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:55)
Thank you so much. Let me tell you a bit about Jamie because she's extraordinary. When it comes to litigating a case involving probate, trusts, estate planning, guardianships, or here in California because we're different, we call them conservatorships. Attorney Jamie Gonzalez of Oldman, Cooley Sallus, Birnberg, Coleman & Gold LLP. She's just extraordinary. Did I get all the names right?

Jamie Gonzalez: (01:21)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:21)
Okay.

Jamie Gonzalez: (01:21)
It's a lot of names.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:23)
I love it. With over 20 years of experience practicing law, Jamie's been repeatedly recognized as tops in her field by Los Angeles Magazine, The Legal Network. And she's also been named one of Southern California's super lawyers for six straight years. This year, there was an additional accolade, and that she was named as one of the top 50 women attorneys in Southern California.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:48)
Given how many attorneys we have in Southern California, that truly sets her apart. Jamie has plenty of her own clients, but the thing is, not all other attorneys want to actually go into court and argue before a judge and a jury. So many don't feel like they have that particular talent. And so when that happens, Jamie gets the call. Her specialty is litigation. Doing the challenging work of navigating all the courtroom dynamics involved with the trial. That's amazing, Jamie. One of the things I usually start out asking people and professionals like you is, what's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

Jamie Gonzalez: (02:26)
Oh, my grandparents. Well, I grew up with all four of my grandparents around. I was very lucky. I remember my dad's parents lived in Leisure Village and Camarillo, and my grandpa used to take me riding through Leisure Village on his moped. And then we'd always get a stick of gum afterwards. My mom's dad would always knock on the door when he was coming over, and he'd say, "I have your Shetland pony." He always promised to buy me a Shetland pony. He never did. But it was always a little thing. I remember my grandma going wedding dress shopping with me, which was really memory.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:59)
Yeah.

Jamie Gonzalez: (03:00)
Just so many memories. We were very close and actually, Marty, I haven't even told you this. I actually live in the house that my grandparents built and my mom and uncle grew up in. We bought it after they passed away. And now I'm raising my kids here, actually.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:16)
How lovely, what a great legacy. What's a favorite thing for you about your work? What do you love the most?

Jamie Gonzalez: (03:23)
My favorite thing, I really like interacting with the clients obviously. But I think actually my favorite, favorite thing is being in court. I know it sounds super dorky, but probate court is kind of my happy place. I'm very comfortable there. I know all the judges. All the judges know me. I feel like I do a really good job when I'm in court. And then it just helps give the clients confidence that I can advocate on their behalves. But I also try really hard to keep them out of court if I can because it's always to the client's best interest to settle a case or deal with it informally without getting in court.

Jamie Gonzalez: (04:01)
Once you get to court, the fees are extraordinary, and you never know which way it's going to go when a judge is in charge. When you're able to settle or work through a case with just the parties, you have a lot more control over the outcome. And so that's always my guidance to the clients. If it's at all possible to try to get there. If not, like I said, I am very comfortable in probate court. I have no problem with it. But I do try to guide them towards working it out if it's possible. A lot of times, it's not mostly because emotion is involved, but that's sort of how I work.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:34)
Yeah. It's so important. I'm sure there are many people out there who hear these terms, probate, trusts, wills, that sort of thing. And they don't know the difference between each can you kind of give us a brief explanation?

Jamie Gonzalez: (04:47)
Sure. Well, first of all, probate is guided by state law. So every state is different. In California, if you have a will, that's great. It sets out your wishes. But in order to avoid going through the court process, you actually have to have a trust. The will is irrelevant. If you have a will but no trust, you still have to go through the process. Of course, if you have neither, you also have to go through the court probate process. But if you have a trust in California, you can set out your wishes. Who gets what from your estate upon your death. And any conditions and things of that nature go in the trust. You can also put those things in your will. I also, if you have minor children, like to include guardians for your kids if something, God forbid, should happen before they turn 18. But the trust is really critical for avoiding the probate process.

Jamie Gonzalez: (05:36)
So that's the difference between those two. In California, we also have conservatorships, which I'm sure a lot of people have heard about because of Britney Spears these days. It's all over the news. But a conservatorship can really be a very non-confrontational non-adversarial process on one end of the spectrum. Of course, it can be incredibly adversarial on the other end of the spectrum. But this can be, at least in probate court, there's also mental health conservatorships. That's not what I do. I do probate conservatorships. So often, it's for elderly people who are suffering from some kind of cognitive decline, whether it be dementia or Alzheimer's and somebody needs to take care of them, make medical decisions, pay their bills, those types of things. Or even somebody that's 18 or 20, who has some type of developmental disability like autism or something like that. In that case, it will be called a limited conservatorship. But both of those on both ends of the spectrum, the developmental delays and the older people who have cognitive decline, those are all probate conservatorships.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:43)
Those are great explanations. What sort of issues in a will, trust, or what have you, tends to kind of trip the legal switch?

Jamie Gonzalez: (06:54)
You mean for litigation purposes?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:56)
Yeah. Or just lawsuits in general.

Jamie Gonzalez: (07:00)
So it can be a poorly drafted document that doesn't clearly lay out who's in charge or what the wishes are, or when something is supposed to be distributed. It can really be something having nothing to do with the documents and just somebody being upset. We live in a very litigious society. People can sue for anything. And when you sue, it's unfortunately part of the public record because the documents are filed with the court, and anybody can access it. The thing is, though, they have to prove it in order to be successful. But there's still allegations out there sometimes of wrongdoing that didn't actually happen. So an example would be a longstanding dispute between siblings and the trust list one person, one sibling, as a successor trustee, but not both. And the one who wasn't named as successor trustee is upset. So then they file a lawsuit about whatever.

Jamie Gonzalez: (08:01)
It could be that they think that the sibling that was named as the successor trustee unduly influenced the parent to name them and cut out the other person as a equal co-trustee. It could be that the distribution provisions, meaning who gets what from the estate, are not set out equally, and the person who gets less is upset by that. And they say that maybe one of the parents didn't have the cognitive understanding in order to execute these documents. Or there's always allegations of forgery, things of that nature. We review a lot of medical records when these issues come up to see if we can figure out, "Okay, did this person have dementia? Did the doctor think that they... even if they had mild dementia, for instance, could they still understand what they were doing and what they were signing?" Those types of things. So really, anything can lead to a lawsuit just because of the nature of our society. But again, they have to prove it with evidence in order to be successful.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:05)
Yeah. And capacity as we call it. Having the knowledge, being present, being able to understand what one is signing. It's a tricky thing because a lot of doctors are nervous for whatever reason about saying that someone has dementia, giving them that diagnosis because they know how upsetting it is. But at the same time, if someone really is having early-stage dementia, mid-stage, late-stage dementia, it has to go on the record because anything that become... if they have mid or late-stage dementia, they're not competent usually to sign a document.

Jamie Gonzalez: (09:46)
Doctors aren't really thinking about the signing of estate planning documents. So I just settled a case actually where a nephew had come in and was supposedly all of a sudden taking care of his uncle. And the uncle had a estate plan that had been around for 25 years. The guy died. The decedent died on May 31st, I believe. And on May 9th, after having an estate plan that hadn't been touched for 25 years, on May 9th and nephew went to the doctor and said, "My uncle wants to make changes to his estate plan. Can you just write us a quick letter saying that he has... he knows what he's doing?" So the doctor wrote a one-page letter that said, "Yeah, this guy knows what he's doing. He can sign anything." Little did the doctor know that there was going to be a huge dispute between nephew and the children of decedent and nephew had the entire estate plan changed, cutting out the kids and leaving basically everything to him.

Jamie Gonzalez: (10:42)
And so now they have a doctor's note saying, "Oh yeah, on May 8th, he knew what he was doing," even though the records are clear that he didn't. And if he had known that he was cutting out his children and leaving everything to long-lost nephew who just showed up in the picture, he wouldn't have signed that. And so that's a very typical fact pattern on the cases that I deal with.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:07)
It is.

Jamie Gonzalez: (11:07)
And it would be nice if the doctors actually asked a few questions before just writing a letter that said, "Oh yeah, he has capacity." The doctor probably just thought he was doing a favor. And it wasn't a big deal. He didn't know the backstory or anything like that. But it ended up causing big trouble in our case because they have this letter. Luckily we had an earlier letter from two months before that the doctor had written that said he didn't have capacity. And it was a lot more detailed. I don't know why she wrote that letter, the first letter, but we had that to counteract the second letter, which was much closer to his death and was only one line. And clearly wasn't... she hadn't thought about or known what the issues were. She just thought she was doing a favor for nephew.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:51)
And she hadn't even seen him, the patient, at any time recently, I'm assuming.

Jamie Gonzalez: (11:57)
No, in that case, she had seen the patient, but I think she thought... I don't know. I never spoke with her. We settled before we got into that deposition. But I think she just thought, "Oh, I see nephew at the hospital with uncle, the decedent or who became the decedent. I mean, he just wants a little letter saying that he can sign some documents. I'll just write it. It's not that big of a deal."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:22)
And it is a big deal.

Jamie Gonzalez: (12:23)
It is a big deal.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:23)
Because then you have a case that can, when it goes to court, costs tens of thousands of dollars from the estate.

Jamie Gonzalez: (12:31)
Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:32)
Hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I remember hearing a story from someone that there was one case where they just kept suing and suing over a book, a cookbook. This [inaudible 00:12:46] very small things. And basically, it was because this one beneficiary was so angry at another beneficiary. I'm assuming they were siblings, as I recall. They said, "I don't care if we spend every cent. I'm going to keep suing him." And that's [crosstalk 00:13:05]-

Jamie Gonzalez: (13:05)
It's funny because when I first started my career, I did business litigation. And business litigation is often an arm's length transaction or arm's length litigation. And although the issues can be incredibly complicated, it can often come down to just a cost-benefit analysis. Does it make sense to continue spending tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to recover X number of dollars? And it's very simple analysis. When you get to probate litigation and trust litigation, there's so much emotion involved that it clouds that cost-benefit analysis. It would be beneficial to them to do that kind of an analysis, but oftentimes they cannot see their way to that analysis because they have 60 years of history, "And mom loved you more than me. And you accused me when we were seven of stealing your Barbie doll, and I never got over it." Those types of things. And it sounds silly to say, but it's true. I mean, it's unbelievable what people can hold onto.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:04)
Yeah. And it is remarkable and spiteful. And then you add in the grief, which clearly those kinds of people aren't very good at processing their emotions.

Jamie Gonzalez: (14:14)
Right.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:14)
And so you dump the grief in there and it just, I think, exacerbates whatever they've been feeling. Do you feel that way as well?

Jamie Gonzalez: (14:23)
Absolutely. I mean, sometimes these cases go on for years after the person's died. So sometimes, the grief has lessened or morphed into some other kind of emotional situation with them. But yes, it can cloud a lot of things, and it's just all these different emotions really make it tough sometimes to negotiate a deal, which would keep people out of court. And like you said, sometimes they don't care. They're like, "Look, I don't care how we spend on this. I want that cookbook" or whatever it is. "Mom always promised it to me. I'm going to get it no matter what."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:58)
Yeah. It's interesting. Jamie, what do you wish people knew about what you do that they usually don't know?

Jamie Gonzalez: (15:10)
Often people come to me in times of crisis, and they're spinning out of control because they have this history that we've discussed, and something has broken the camel's back, as it were.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:24)
Yeah.

Jamie Gonzalez: (15:25)
And so they are really focused on this specific thing that just happened, and they can't see the bigger picture. Or they're not focused at all, and they keep bringing in all these irrelevant issues, and I have to keep bringing them back to, "Okay, let's focus on what we need in order to get this conservatorship or in order to defeat this trust amendment," or whatever it is. Your question was, what should they know? They should know that it's really important to focus, even though it's hard to do that. They should know that there are alternatives to getting what you want without having to run to court.

Jamie Gonzalez: (16:06)
And they should also know that they want to match up with a lawyer that they can connect with. You don't want the biggest shark in the pond if you cannot have a conversation and you do not feel like you are being heard. Oftentimes, the clients just want to be heard, whether it's by their own lawyer, by the other side, by a mediator, or by a judge. And if there is a lawyer that they hire because they're a shark or... But they can't. They don't have the emotional intelligence to really sit back and listen, then that can sometimes be a recipe for disaster and will not make you be successful in what your goals are.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:46)
Yeah. Because sometimes those people just want to go to court and rack up the legal fees.

Jamie Gonzalez: (16:50)
Yes. A lot of litigators. And thankfully, in probate, we don't see that too much.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:54)
Okay.

Jamie Gonzalez: (16:54)
It's more in other areas of law. Probate litigation, the bar for probate litigators is very small. So we run up against the same lawyers again and again in our cases, which is a nice thing because then people don't tend to burn bridges. I mean, attorneys don't tend to burn bridges. Attorneys tend to be a little bit more willing to work with you. We don't get into as many discovery battles as they do in civil litigation.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:20)
Or on Law and Order and those kinds of shows.

Jamie Gonzalez: (17:21)
Right. Exactly. Exactly. So you want to make sure that not only can the client see the forest through the trees, but that the attorney can too, and isn't just billing. We bill in six minute increments, but those six-minutes can rack up really quickly if your eye isn't on the prize and you're not keeping in mind, "Okay, what is the goal here? Let's not have a scorched earth tactic or strategy. Let's just really focus on where we want to be."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:53)
Yeah. That's so important. What people don't realize. And what I learned once I started going to meetings and networking with a lot of attorneys is that really a lot of attorneys do get along and really are just looking for a good remedy for what their client wants.

Jamie Gonzalez: (18:12)
Correct.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:13)
And so it really helps if both attorneys do know one another and are familiar with one another and really are respectful of their clients rather than their own fees.

Jamie Gonzalez: (18:24)
It's so funny. I have a case. It's a will contest. So there was no trust. And if I represent the stepchildren of the decedent and then the biological daughter of the decedent is on the other side, and she didn't have an attorney, and it was very difficult to get anything done. I mean, clients are allowed to represent themselves. But I just got an email from an attorney that she hired. And I was like, this is fabulous. We have a great attorney on the other side, who is smart, but is reasonable and rational, and you can have a conversation. So I emailed my clients. I was like, "This is good news. We will be able to move this case ahead quicker because we have this lawyer on the other side who I've worked with many times before and who is a reasonable, rational, human being."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:09)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's makes such a difference. I can only imagine. What do you feel is distinctive about what you do with your clients, your own approach?

Jamie Gonzalez: (19:21)
Well, I talked a little bit earlier about the emotional component to all of this, and I think it's really important for the attorney to really have a good emotional IQ. I know my last name is Gonzalez, but I'm a Jewish mother from the Valley, and I have three children. And I really try to bring that maternal side to my clients because I want them to feel like they are heard-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:47)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jamie Gonzalez: (19:48)
... and understood. And then I can be the meanie in the courtroom and fight for them and advocate for them. But I really try to just bring the emotional side to it because a lot of times, that's what the client needs.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:04)
Yeah. And I'm wondering where does that motherly instinct that you have, that compassion that you have and the ability to be reasonable, even in a very emotional situation. Where does that come from?

Jamie Gonzalez: (20:18)
I am an emotional person, a very emotional person. Tell me anything about my children. I'll be crying at the drop of a dime. I love those kids. That is my number one job is raising those kids, and they are amazing. And I try to bring that... because we're dealing with families in our area of law. It's very easy to bring that into what I do. I see it. I understand it. And obviously, I'm a daughter. I'm a mother. I'm a sister. I'm an aunt, so I try to really bring that in. And part of it is I can't avoid it because I am an emotional person. I mean, which also helps in the advocating of things because I get very passionate when I'm advocating for my clients.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:03)
Yeah. Well, and we've shared a client and thanks to you for bringing me in because often you need a team of people to really get to the-

Jamie Gonzalez: (21:11)
Absolutely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:12)
... to resolve the issues and oh, boy, did they love you? They do love you. They say, "Oh, it was great to see Jamie in negotiations," because you maintain your calm, and you did. But when something, shall we say, obnoxious might come up from the other side, you just very gently shut that down.

Jamie Gonzalez: (21:33)
I shut it down. You got to shut it down. And that was a case. We mediated that case. We were there till 3:30 in the morning, and at about 9:00 PM, the judge was like, "You know what, maybe we should just shut this down and see if we can start another day." And I was like, "Your Honor, I don't think that's a good idea. We are making progress. If we walk away from this, this is going to backslide." And so I pushed to keep it going. And ultimately, we were able to settle. Like I said, it was 3:30 in the morning, and one of the clients was on the east coast. So it was 6:30 for her, but we did settle the case.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:10)
But boy, are you dogged.

Jamie Gonzalez: (22:12)
Well, I mean, it's what was best for the clients we had to keep going. I mean, sure. I would have loved to have been in my pajamas in bed at 10 o'clock at night.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:20)
Yes.

Jamie Gonzalez: (22:20)
But I knew that we could get there if we kept pushing. And I did not want to walk away because that would have been a disaster.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:27)
And that just attest to your dedication to your clients and to the law. Jamie, I know each situation is different, but just how do you go about easing a client from that very emotional state back toward reality so they can make smarter decisions?

Jamie Gonzalez: (22:47)
It can really be tough, and sometimes it can not be done. But you just try to keep the eye on the prize. And sometimes, you do have to bring harp on that cost-benefit analysis. Do you really want to file that motion to recover $10,000 when it might cost you $7,000 to file the motion? I'm dealing with a client right now on that issue. And her response is, "Absolutely. I do. I feel like I need to see this through to the end. And she is not living up to her side of the bargain," her sister. "And I want to do it." And so, in that instance, I actually agree with her.

Jamie Gonzalez: (23:24)
I think the... we had a settlement, and she's not complying with the settlement agreement. And even though we're not talking about tens of thousands of dollars, it's an important thing. And the other side is just getting away with murder. So [inaudible 00:23:38] sometimes it's difficult, but trying to bring them back, oftentimes, in my conversations with clients, I will have to say, "Okay, I hear what you're saying. Let's focus on X, not Y, right now. I want to hear about Y, but right now we're talking about X." And I have to just calmly kind of continue to bring them back to where we need to focus, and it's tough.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:02)
It's really difficult when those ancient issues from when they were six years old arise.

Jamie Gonzalez: (24:10)
If you're dealing with a 50 something-year-old or a 60 something-year-old who've been harboring something since they were six years old. It's not going anywhere. You're not going to get them to just forget about it. You got to deal with it. You got to confront it. You got to let them talk about it, and then you got to refocus them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:26)
It is so important. I think that's also very unique with you as well. I don't think all attorneys are as good a listener as you are, and to have that, what you call emotional intelligence. Realizing-

Jamie Gonzalez: (24:38)
It's hard sometimes. It's really hard because you're like, "I got a million things to do. I just want to focus on this." But you just got to remember that this is what the client needs. And that's my job, is to do what they need and help them through this process.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:50)
Yeah. And also, they're dealing with the grief compounding everything, so that doesn't help. So what kind of questions should people ask attorneys that they're interviewing to represent them in your field specifically?

Jamie Gonzalez: (25:08)
They should ask if they're familiar with the specific type of case that they're contemplating. They should ask... they should really listen. It's not even the substance so much. It's the connection. I think it's so important for there to be the connection between the attorney and the client. You can get through, even if the attorney has no experience in this area of law. If there's a connection and they're dedicated to your case, they really can be successful. Obviously, you'd prefer to have somebody with experience that's dealt with these issues before. It's always nice if there's a connection with the attorneys on the other side, or they've appeared in front of the judge that your case is in front of. But I don't think those things are critical. The connection is super important and just general familiarity with the area in which they want... they have an issue.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:58)
Yeah. But like you said, that connection, especially knowing that they will listen to you.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:03)
Exactly.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:04)
And that they know how to explain things well without a lot of jargon, I think. Or if there is jargon, they know how to explain it.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:10)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:10)
In lay terms.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:11)
There's a lot of jargon. Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:12)
Wonderful. Well, Jamie, thank you so much. This has been extraordinary. It's no wonder you're one of the top attorneys in Southern California. You're so articulate and clear, and I love how well you listen. That's fantastic.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:31)
Thank you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:31)
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:00)
Being the executor. Just how challenging is it? And how do you carry out your loved ones' wishes while you're grieving them? Let's learn about that journey, from someone who's been going through it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:14)
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:29)
How to Move Your Mom and Still Be on Speaking Terms Afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults and their family members, who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions, as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:54)
Welcome back, and I'm with Nancy Noever again, and we're going to talk about a whole different topic. Before, she spoke about what it was like as her mother was dying, and the decision to let her go according to her wishes, meaning her mother's wishes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:12)
Now we're going to talk about the whole journey of being the executor of her mother's estate, because it's a whole different ball game, for lack of a better term. Nancy, thank you again so much for being here.

Nancy Noever: (01:26)
Oh, thanks so much for having me. I hope that some of this will help some other people. I know you've been a great support system for me, and to be able to answer questions as I was going through this.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:38)
Yeah. You know, I'm so glad you said that, and you put it so eloquently, because people, people bestow the role of executor, because yes, it's an honor. But the thing to remember for people is that once you become an executor, after someone has passed, you become the CEO of the estate.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:00)
Frequently, for a lot of families, that means you're have a big human resources problem, big HR problem. Because you have to deal with all that.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:10)
And there are so many questions, and we're going to be talking about what you learn through this process. It's been a year and a half. People think they can get it done so swiftly, and it takes time, and you have to be patient.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:23)
Before we get into all that, I want to formally introduce Nancy, and tell you what she does and all about her. Until recently, Nancy was a long Angeles-based production manager and line producer in the entertainment industry.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:36)
She'd been doing that for 25 years. But more importantly, her mother's death, the pandemic, and her desire for a career change all converged, in February and March of 2020, to set her on a completely new and unfamiliar path, in a new city, Huntsville, Alabama, on the other side of the country.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:58)
All right. So Nancy, let's go back to March, 2020. Your mother has passed.

Nancy Noever: (03:07)
I left my place in Los Angeles. I left on March 12th, and I put everything in storage, so I had packed up one life, my own. Then I was coming out to Huntsville, and pack up my mom's, and get the house ready to go on the market.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:25)
I just want to acknowledge the fact that when you left LA, you would put everything in a storage unit, your whole life. And how big was that storage unit?

Nancy Noever: (03:36)
It was a 10 X 15.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:40)
You had to do a lot of downsizing.

Nancy Noever: (03:42)
I did. Also, I have a Prius, so I had packed that to the gills.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:49)
You went one cross country that way, as COVID struck the entire world. I remember you telling me that experience of going cross country, as everything was starting to shut down.

Nancy Noever: (04:02)
As I'm leaving Los Angeles on the 10, going literally three miles an hour, my phone starts ringing. All the work that I was doing supposed to do for the next two months, it gets postponed.

Nancy Noever: (04:16)
I'm listening to NPR as I'm crossing state borders, and about halfway through, then I was talking with one of my friends, and they're like, "You should just go ahead and see America, because there's nothing going on."

Nancy Noever: (04:28)
Once I hit at Huntsville, then the probate courts had closed. So I didn't have the papers, to be able to get access to my mom's account.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:37)
Oh, wow.

Nancy Noever: (04:38)
Luckily, a very nice woman, who was very, very helpful at the credit union where my mom had her accounts, had a back door into the probate people, to actually get me copies of the documents that even my attorneys couldn't get. I was very grateful. That's when a small town works for you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:00)
Yes, yeah. That' so true. That is so true.

Nancy Noever: (05:02)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:03)
One of the things that is vital is, that you have to get your hands on, is the death certificate, and multiple copies.

Nancy Noever: (05:11)
You need it for every time you have credit card accounts, anything that's dealing with money. Then you're going to need to have a death certificate for that organization.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:20)
Because again, when you become the executor, it's brand new to you.

Nancy Noever: (05:24)
Right.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:25)
You have this whole big learning curve, all the while that you're grieving. It's so difficult.

Nancy Noever: (05:30)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:31)
You get to Huntsville. What are your first thoughts? What do you get to work on?

Nancy Noever: (05:36)
The first one was to be able to get access to the financial accounts. My mom had a house, and a bunch of other things, a car, and then some account, financial accounts. So, 401k, and then, death benefits, and Social Security and things.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:52)
Let me ask you. Your mother was amazing, because she had everything set out. She had a plan, and that was had to be so helpful. Didn't she tell you that she wanted to be cremated? So you knew that ahead of time?

Nancy Noever: (06:10)
She showed me where everything was. She was a product of her parents, and the Depression, so that there was money hidden around the house, and she told me where most of that was.

Nancy Noever: (06:22)
My mom was also very paper-oriented, so the bills were all paper, or tangible. I didn't have to crack any kind of code on her laptop, I didn't have to go into any accounts. I had those passwords too.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:37)
You've got to have, keep track of those passwords, and have them available. They have to be written down or printed out somewhere, so that people can get access. If you have a safe, the combination, if it's a combination safe.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:52)
I remember years ago, my father showed me where everything was. He said, "Come on over here for a second." He was at his desk.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:59)
He pulled open the file drawer, and he said, "There's the will, there's the trust, there are the bank accounts," open another drawer. "There's the safe deposit key, at the bank."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:09)
It was so helpful, to know where to go, and I was also honored that he trusted me so much. I'm sure you felt that way too, with your mom.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:21)
In addition to the estate plan, the second biggest gift you can give those you love, after you've passed, is that you have gone through everything in the house. Because my dad did that, and there was still so much to do. You're about a year and a half out now, from your mother's passing, and you're still dealing with a few more things.

Nancy Noever: (07:43)
Well, there are three things that really were characteristic of my mom. She was a quilter, she collected dolls, and because she had fashion dolls that she would make clothes for, and that were historically accurate.

Nancy Noever: (07:56)
The first thing that was most important was getting the quilting. She was a fabric artist. We were also in the middle of the pandemic, and they needed fabric to be able to make masks. It was beautiful fabric, it was high quality fabric, which made high quality masks.

Nancy Noever: (08:16)
In the end to various sources. I gave a 250 bankers' boxes full of fabric, to either mask makers, or the Huntsville Foundation, which made it back to the mask makers. And approximately 25,000 masks were made, that were distributed statewide, and regionally, and a couple of them even made them into some foreign country, through various people. My mom was doing NICU quilts, baby quilts?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:45)
Can you say what NICU stands for?

Nancy Noever: (08:48)
Neonatal Intensive Care Unit, for the small babies. Then my mom was doing a service project, and she had approximately 54 quilt tops that were done, but it still needed to be quilted, in order for it to be something to give to somebody.

Nancy Noever: (09:06)
Her quilting friends, a really wonderful woman and her friends, Barbara Black, and the so-and-sos here in Huntsville, there were 12 of them I believe, and they were just amazing. They finished the quilts for my mom, and we were able to donate them to the local hospital here, to the NICU, 54 baby quilts that were donated.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:30)
It's really interesting, because you had told me that one of the reasons your mother didn't really want a memorial service is because you thought she was afraid, no one would come, and yet, you had this huge support system.

Nancy Noever: (09:43)
I did. And I think my mother would be astounded at the impact that she had on this group of people, and how much she had touched their lives, and how much they respected her quilting skills, as well.

Nancy Noever: (09:58)
I think we often don't value ourselves in the way that others do, but between that, and the students that my mother taught as a history professor, she touched a lot of lives over her lifetime. And what's been important to me is to extend that legacy, so that her quilting continued to live on.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:20)
People pass. I think, in our society, we think that's the end. Look at how much your mother did, even after she passed, how she was able to touch even afterward, so many people.

Nancy Noever: (10:33)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:33)
It's remarkable.

Nancy Noever: (10:35)
Yeah, and I met so many. It also gave me a connection into some people here in Huntsville, that were able to help me grieve, and be a support system locally.

Nancy Noever: (10:47)
Then we had an estate sale, that was just of quilting supplies, and it was a two-day sale, and it was lots of people. But I know that the quilting materials went to people who value them and can use them, so they're in someone's home. My mom had a saying that if you are covered in a quilt, then you're wrapped in love.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:11)
Your mother was such an extraordinary artist. And just how precise you have to be in quilting, the little corners that have to be sewn precisely.

Nancy Noever: (11:20)
My mom was very skilled in all of that. It was an immense amount of fabric, because she loved fabric. She would put them in clear containers, and they would be stacked up, but she could see her fabric every day, and she knew what was what, and she could tell you a story about it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:35)
Clearly, you did such a wonderful job, preserving and respecting your mother's legacy. Why was that so important to you?

Nancy Noever: (11:47)
That's an easy answer, in some ways. Because it was a way to honor her, and it was a way that I could still connect to her.

Nancy Noever: (11:57)
And it was a way to say thank you for what she had done for me. And she may not know that, but I know that. And to me, it's a way to honor her.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:07)
That's beautiful. With who we are, and our various emotional, personal and professional skill sets, which ones did you really have to draw on, and which really served you well?

Nancy Noever: (12:19)
I have been a production manager and a producer, and the industry, the whole idea is to keep the camera rolling. So you learn how to survive in a very dynamic make situation, in which you have to learn a lot of things sometimes on the fly.

Nancy Noever: (12:38)
Those skills were very helpful to me in combating, or combating's the wrong word, in just completing the tasks that were I had. And I had a notebook that I wrote down every day what I was doing, and all the numbers that were important.

Nancy Noever: (12:58)
The tenacity that you need to have, being able to have, in some ways, to compartmentalize, and have tunnel vision on the tasks ahead, the ability to be calm under very dynamic situations, those are all good skills to have.

Nancy Noever: (13:20)
The people skills are also very good too. In my case, it wasn't my family, but I was dealing with people who were stressed out, because of COVID.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:27)
To go back to the first few months after COVID, and were all desperately trying to figure things out, and then in your case, that was compounded by having to do all the tasks that an executor has to do, and including, arranging the burial, and all of that. All the while too, there's COVID, there's being the executor, and you're grieving.

Nancy Noever: (13:52)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:52)
How-

Nancy Noever: (13:52)
And I'm grieving alone, because I'm in a house by myself. Again, we were all under lockdown, and there were things that needed to get done, and there were things that needed to get done for the house to be able to put it up on, on the market.

Nancy Noever: (14:07)
But every time you brought somebody into your house, at that time, we didn't have the vaccines, and we didn't know what we were doing. So there was a risk involved in that. And then, I have a brother, but it was also a risk to his family. So I ended up doing a lot of it by myself.

Nancy Noever: (14:25)
COVID is a unique time in history. A lot of the stuff that you have to deal with, in terms of family, in terms of your own grief, in terms of tasks, in terms of finding things out about your loved one that you necessarily didn't know, when they were alive?

Nancy Noever: (14:46)
Some of that can be good, some of that can be bad. And I think those are things, that COVID just added another layer of it to it, but it also gave me some time.

Nancy Noever: (14:56)
The world stopped. So it gave me some time to recover, and to be able to be in my, sucking my thumb and holding my pillow.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:06)
I know there were times when you felt like you weren't making progress, but you were, and it just takes time, even in the best of situations, without COVID. Just in general, when you're being an executor, you do a lot of waiting.

Nancy Noever: (15:21)
Yeah. And I'm at the point now where I'm waiting. My mom's final tax return is done. The major assets of the estate have been sold. Now I'm waiting on the 2021 tax forms to be printed, which won't happen until January of 2022, to be able to close out the estate.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:42)
You're already at year and a half into being the executor. So it's going to be a good two years.

Nancy Noever: (15:47)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:48)
Then maybe you'll be able to step out of it. I'm so glad you and your brother managed to get along during this whole time, so you didn't [inaudible 00:15:56].

Nancy Noever: (15:55)
We did, and that's a really important thing, I think, although I did a lot of the work myself, and he's there to be a sounding board.

Nancy Noever: (16:03)
He was also open to listening to what was going on, and I would say, "This is what I'm going to do. Are you okay with it?" If he wasn't, then we'd have a discussion, and figure out a way to work it out for both of us.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:16)
What do you know now, that you wish you had known, when you first had to take this on?

Nancy Noever: (16:22)
If I known what I know now, I think I would have counseled my mom to do a couple of things like a payable on demand, or payable upon death for a lot of her accounts, which would have made it easier to do stuff. You can establish a beneficiary that's payable upon death, which means whoever is the beneficiary needs to just show a death certificate for the individual, and then those funds go directly to you. They're not considered an inheritance, because they aren't gone through probate.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:51)
People don't realize when someone passes, how much money you need, almost immediately, for the funeral, for the casket, for the cremation urn, and then just finishing up their financial lives for them.

Nancy Noever: (17:12)
Everyone's experience may be different. Alabama's laws are very different than California's laws are.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:17)
Oh yeah.

Nancy Noever: (17:21)
You have to know what your local laws are. You should get a local lawyer in the vicinity, in which the probate court's going to end up happening, occurring.

Nancy Noever: (17:32)
It's a relatively simple process, and yet it's still very complicated. There's so much more involved in this than I ever would imagine.

Nancy Noever: (17:41)
One of the things I think I'm glad that I did from the very beginning is to document everything. You should keep a daily diary of who you're contacting, and what their outcomes of stuff is.

Nancy Noever: (17:53)
You should have addresses and contact numbers of who you talked to, at whatever place it was, and what website and e-mail, and all those kinds of things. Because something may come up six months away from when you last did it.

Nancy Noever: (18:08)
Again, as you've mentioned, you're in grieving, and you think you're doing really, really well. But some days, you're really not.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:15)
You're not. And you get exhausted. I mean, grief exhausts you, even if you're not the executor.

Nancy Noever: (18:20)
There's going to be so many people that want to get involved in it, so if you have it documented, and just written down some place. Then you have a way to be able to combat some of that, and simplify your life, and talk to the lawyer.

Nancy Noever: (18:34)
One of the things I started dealing with the attorney is that I would give them monthly updates, and I gave it to my brother, as well. And it would have, "This is what I took care of, these are the checks that were written," so that there was a document that both the attorney had, and my brother.

Nancy Noever: (18:51)
So if there were any kind of questions about what I was doing, there was a record of it. Everybody's estate is going to be different.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:59)
I'm just curious. Throughout all this, because you were in isolation, as where we all, because of the pandemic. Did your sense of time shift while you were going through all this?

Nancy Noever: (19:12)
Absolutely, and it still is to some extent. You don't know what day it is. Weekends melt into weeks.

Nancy Noever: (19:21)
One of the things that was very helpful with me having a daily journal is that whenever I thought, "Oh, my gosh, I'm not moving very fast on all of this," I could go back and look and see what I had done.

Nancy Noever: (19:31)
I could also see where I was, "Okay, I'm caught up in something. What's stopping me? What task am I putting off, either emotionally or physically?"

Nancy Noever: (19:40)
Then there are days, like there was one day when I was cleaning out some stuff in the kitchen, and I found a tea towel that I did, when I was in third grade, that my mom had kept. And that just stopped me.

Nancy Noever: (19:52)
You just need to know that there're going to be days, as you're going through stuff, or there's a question that I want to ask about something, and I'm like, "Oh, no, I can't ask Mom about that. Oh, I can't ask Dad about that."

Nancy Noever: (20:04)
And also, having to deal with the pandemic, and also, with my own grief. Because I'm moved away from my support group, and what I had known for 25 years in Los Angeles.

Nancy Noever: (20:16)
You have to redefine who you are, and what's safe, in the view that you don't have this parent who's always been there with you. And that assumes you had a good relationship with your parent, and a bunch of stuff that way.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:30)
I've talked to people who did not get along. But there's still this emptiness, almost like a little bit of, I don't want to call it fear, but discomfort.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:39)
So we feel multiple emotions at once. Because there's this weird bit of freedom, that people, that I know I felt. It didn't compensate for all the grief I felt, but it was a surprising emotion.

Nancy Noever: (20:53)
For those that didn't have a good relationship with their parents, you don't get a chance to reconcile that. You can't have that moment in which they, whatever judgment you felt like you had, or lack of love, or substance abuse issues, or whatever you had with your parent, you don't have that moment to reconcile.

Nancy Noever: (21:15)
But it also brings out family dynamics that were at play when you were kids, that now are not. Again, I'm very lucky and that I have a good family situation, but I have heard stories, and I'm sure you have, as well.

Nancy Noever: (21:30)
The attorney was also very blunt with that, and also told, at the very first meeting I had with her after my mom's death, then my brother was also on the line, and she was very open and said, "Look, she's going to be the executor, and she's going to get an executor's fee. That's legal, and not part of the discussion of all of this."

Nancy Noever: (21:51)
Most of the laws, like in Alabama, it's two and a half percent out, and two and a half percent in. So it basically is five percent of what the estate is. As I'm going through all the boxes I'm going, "Oh my God, my hourly wage is nothing."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:04)
It's a penny an hour, basically.

Nancy Noever: (22:06)
Yeah, yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:08)
That's basically what it is.

Nancy Noever: (22:08)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:08)
And it does take up such a substantial portion of your life. I just want to say and recommend to people, that it's really important to name one person, as you just said here, and as your trustee, if you have a trust. Your healthcare directive, one person,

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:26)
I was lucky. My father had named myself and my sister, and there are some issues there. Thankfully, we both agreed, towards my father's end, what to do, but I was lucky. So one person needs to be the decision maker.

Nancy Noever: (22:41)
Having a bunch of people in that decision point is difficult. As the person who's making that decision, you need to not second guess yourself with it, because it could weigh very, very heavily on you in ways that are surprising later on.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:58)
What plans have you made for your own departure?

Nancy Noever: (23:05)
I have decided I want to make it as simple as possible. So I'm pretty clear in what I want to have done.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:16)
And that's written down somewhere?

Nancy Noever: (23:17)
It's written down. I have also expressed it to multiple friends, and people who might be involved with it at the end. I've had-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:26)
We've had those discussions, you and I together.

Nancy Noever: (23:29)
... Absolutely. And my brother, I have had very open discussions with him about what it is.

Nancy Noever: (23:35)
I'm not married, I don't have children, so there is a different kind of legacy I think I will leave, than other people would. I think my legacy needs to be in who I am now, not in who I will be once I've passed.

Nancy Noever: (23:55)
My stuff is my stuff, and it's great for me now. Then I need to have no illusions that anybody else is going to want it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:03)
Yes, and thank you for saying that, because that's so true. One of the things we do is, we call them clearouts, when someone has passed, going through the different items. And so many people, especially the older generation now, the people in their eighties, nineties, and 100, they want to give it to their kids and their kids don't want it. They don't use China sets.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:28)
At this point, a year and a half into this, do you feel like you're more towards feeling like you're going towards a new beginning? Or are you still having those feelings of an ending, in terms of your mother's passing, and things like that?

Nancy Noever: (24:47)
I think I'm still in the middle of it. So I think the big things are done. I think I've started dealing with the grief, and making decisions about my own future.

Nancy Noever: (25:01)
So I'm hopeful in one sense, and I'm sad in another, but I'm still in the middle of it. And I think I will still feel like I'm in the middle of it, until the last bit of stuff is taken care of.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:16)
You have told me something really interesting, is that you think people die as they have lived.

Nancy Noever: (25:23)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:24)
What do you mean about that? Talk to me about that some.

Nancy Noever: (25:32)
I think however you are in the world is how you go out in the world. If you're afraid of the future, then you're going to be very scared about death, and it's going to have a bigger prominence in your desire to stick around, or to have more care.

Nancy Noever: (25:51)
My father was the eternal optimist. And my father wanted to live to be 100. He died when he was 84, and was pretty much, up until the moment he died, he still thought he could live to be 100, and with health failing.

Nancy Noever: (26:09)
He didn't need much, and he wasn't really particularly organized. He was much of a dreamer. My mom, on the other hand, was very practical.

Nancy Noever: (26:19)
She had it all laid out for me, she was very clear. I've learned much more about dolls and sewing machines, and quilting fabrics, and fabric piles, than I ever thought I would ever want to know.

Nancy Noever: (26:31)
And most of it, I'm going to dispose of. But it also brings me closer to my mom at different points in time, too.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:39)
You are a good daughter, Ms. Nancy, and your mother was very fortunate in that. And I know also, you were so close to your mom, and that was really lovely as well. She was a good mom.

Nancy Noever: (26:50)
Again, as much research and, and preparation as you can do, it won't be enough. Some of it, you're just going to have to wing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:01)
Yeah, take a breath, make sure you have an attorney to talk to, and some friends, and go from there. By the way, anybody who works with older adults your estate planning attorney will have, if you need other resources, they usually are well tapped into the whole community of people who work with older adults.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:21)
So that's really helpful. Thank you again, Nancy. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom and Still Be on Speaking Terms Afterward.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:32)
Please visit how to moveyourmom.com for more information about this episode, and for additional podcast episodes, featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:00)
Have you ever considered what it would be like to carry out a loved one's wishes at the end of their lives? What if they don't want extreme measures taken to save them and would rather that you let them go? How do you face this kind of situation? My guest for this episode of, How to Move Your Mom will share her own experience with us

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:26)
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that. As are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom and still be on speaking terms afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who shared their stories with warmth, understanding and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner and here you'll find answers to many of your questions, as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you. Welcome, Nancy, to our podcast. I'm so glad you're here.

Nancy Noever: (01:08)
I'm so glad to be here. Thank you. I'm really honored for you to have me on as a guest.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:13)
I'm honored that you're my friend and shared the journey you've been on for the last year and a half.

Nancy Noever: (01:21)
It's been a crazy one. And I want to thank you, being a friend and helping me and supporting in that because I don't know where I would be without the support of you and several others.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:31)
Yeah. Our Saturday group, the six of us. Really wonderful. So let me first tell you about Nancy, a little bit. Until recently Nancy was a Los Angeles based production manager and line producer in the entertainment industry. That's been her career for 25 years. Not that you'd know it to look at her, but more importantly, her mother's death, the pandemic and her desire for change a big career change, all converged in February, March of 2020. And that all set her on a completely new and unfamiliar path in a new city on the other side of the country. It's been a remarkable journey for you. And so let's go back to February, March 2020. One thing, obviously, anybody hearing this thinks, "Oh, COVID." Yes, but there was so much more going on for you.

Nancy Noever: (02:21)
My mom, all of a sudden had a stroke on February 11th, and I was in the middle of a job and my mom had had a transient ischemic attack. And it's basically a temporary stroke. And she had blacked out and had gone to the emergency room and then had called me as the Oscars were going on saying, "I love you" kind of thing.

Nancy Noever: (02:44)
And then on Tuesday, which was two days later, then my mom had a massive stroke and it was one that she lost the ability to use for right side of her body. She couldn't speak and she couldn't really move. So my brother found my mom and we figured out by what was on TV and her normal schedule that she'd probably been there a couple of hours. She wasn't able to really communicate very well because she lost use of language, but she was pretty adamant, "I'm in trouble. I know this."

Nancy Noever: (03:26)
My brother did the normal reaction 911, ambulance going there. The emergency room, they're trying to figure out whether it was a cardiac event or what it was. And then it becomes a thing of, "We need to intubate her." And my brother was like, "Okay, we need to figure out what this is." Because that's part of the problem with a stroke is you don't know how bad it is. We didn't really know what was going on. They were doing all the tests. Then we found out it was a stroke and then it was like, "I need to come out there." Because I'm like I said, the executor of all of that. And we'd been through this with my father, who'd had a stroke and my brother had had to deal with that. And my father was like, "No, I'm going to be fine. We're going to work on this."

Nancy Noever: (04:07)
Well, it was five years that he survived, but he was in full nursing care the entire time and bedridden. And because of that, my mom was just adamant. She was like, "If something like that happens to me, I'm done. Let me die." By the time I got to Huntsville I was a mess. And I didn't want to see my mom in that situation. And it was past visiting hours anyway, because she was in ICU at that point. So I went and slept at-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:34)
You're in Huntsville, Alabama now?

Nancy Noever: (04:37)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:37)
As opposed to Los Angeles. Just to give people an idea of the geography.

Nancy Noever: (04:41)
And then the next Sunday morning, I went in to see her. And mom's, they were trying to take the feeding tube out or the intubation out, trying to see what state she was in. She had a couple of days that was by, that was Sunday. And as soon as she... So they put you under a tranquilizer in order to get the tube out, then they need to start slowly bringing you out. So as soon as they did, my mom took my hand and just started hammering it and just basically tapping it and giving me that "mom look." It was like, "You know what needs to be done."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:27)
That must've been so hard for you.

Nancy Noever: (05:31)
Yes and no. Yes, because I realized my mom was going to die, but that had already sort of happened in one sense, because I knew the path that she was going to be, she was going to be miserable and that there wasn't much. My mom would be there, she might've survived it. Although I don't think she would have been, because she couldn't really swallow. So it would have been a feeding tube and a bunch of stuff that my mom would have hated.

Nancy Noever: (06:04)
She was also very, very practical. And at the point when the cards are stacked against you then sometimes it's time to fold your hand. And my mom had lived a very full life and there wasn't much more she wanted to do. She'd always talked about quality of life and that being much more important than quantity of life. And my mom was 82 at the time. So she'd had a very large quantity of life. But at that point then they were bathing her and they ended up to clean her face and then they unbuckled the strap. And when that happened, my mom spit the tube out on Sunday night. Because that's how much she was like, "I'm not doing this."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:53)
That's quite a clear statement without words. Yeah.

Nancy Noever: (06:58)
And so the doctor were apologetic and were all really sorry. And you know, what's not the way the proper procedure of how it goes. And I'm like, well, it's pretty emphatic at what she wanted to do. And then it was a question of, okay, but she's still having a lot of problems swallowing. So we're going to put a feeding tube on her. And I was like, "No that's not what she wants. And that will not be what she wants." The three of us, I think a nurse and a couple other medical people were there and the doctor was like, "Well, she can't really swallow. So are we talking now about palliative care?" And I was like, "Yes we are." And it was a very easy decision because my mother had been very, very clear in what her wishes were.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:45)
That was such a gift to you.

Nancy Noever: (07:47)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:49)
Both. My parents had made it clear to me too. And it's still hard to let them go for the obvious reasons, but when they make it clear to you and you realize it's really for that's what they want and it's for their benefit.

Nancy Noever: (08:02)
Right? So after we told the doctors that, and then they're talking about moving her out of the ICU because she was no longer on intubated and into palliative care. My brother and I went down into the lobby of the hospital.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:20)
That must've been a tough conversation.

Nancy Noever: (08:23)
It was, and it was because then we started doing the second guessing thing, "Are we doing this? Do you want to have one more conversation with her? Do you want to have one more, whatever?" And then we started doing the practical thing of, mom's not going to be able to do this and mom's not going to be able to do that. And it's sort of one of those things of it's accepting reality as opposed to imposing you want to happen. And my mom really died at that stroke and we don't deal very well with death in our society. Currently, we all-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:09)
That's an understatement

Nancy Noever: (09:11)
And we all kind of have this because I think we're not connected to it in a way that our previous generations did where-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:18)
And I think we refuse to be. Nobody wants to talk about the end or that anything's going to end, or even God forbid getting into your later years.

Nancy Noever: (09:26)
Yeah. And that's tough. And again, a lot of people who are older, I've talked to, are like, getting old is not for the faint of heart. It's the aches and pains and the things you can't do and the way people respond to you. And there's a lot of difficulty in doing that if you take the dark side of it. So my brother and I in the lobby, then we kind of went through or like, all right, let's think this through, let's look at all that my brother and I were debate partners in high school.

Nancy Noever: (10:01)
And so we kind of like let's step back for a second. Let's lay it all out like we used to do on my dad's chalk board and this is the argument. And then we would take those sides of it. And we were both kind of saying, all right, then this is kind of what we have to do. And then it becomes the logistics sets of all of that. And my brother is a scientist and he's was really great at figuring out options of treatment. He was really instrumental in doing the all right, whatever our options are. And then mine was really kind of, I'm the logistics person. So now that we've made this decision, what do we have to do? And my mom had signed a DNR-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:52)
Which is that do not resuscitate order. Yeah.

Nancy Noever: (10:55)
And she had all the paperwork and had gone to the lawyers, which was all really great. And so I had all the documentation that I had all the authority to it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:03)
But let's talk about the difference between medical care and palliative care, which is mostly with regard to hospice.

Nancy Noever: (11:11)
Yeah, well, palliative care basically says you make people as comfortable as possible. So you're not going to do extraordinary measures. So in this case, extraordinary measures would be to put up my mom on a feeding tube and then start the whole series of physical therapists going through there and occupational therapists and treatment to see how much movement and swallow tasks and all of that. And at the point at which we said, no, we're going toward palliative care, then it's about making someone as comfortable as possible and seeing how the body naturally will heal or not.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:47)
How it will react.

Nancy Noever: (11:49)
Yes. Because sometimes you go into palliative care and gives your body a breather and the natural healing parts come through and you are then make a different decision that it is time for other paths that was not going to happen with my mom. They're still trying to do a lot of the things that you want to have doctors do which is try and save you. But the doctor, when I was having the conversation with him was look, he basically said, "I can't kill her." And I'm like, "I'm not asking you to kill her. I'm asking you to let her be comfortable." And he was like, "Well, we don't want to speed it along." And I was kind of saying, you're not doing anything.

Nancy Noever: (12:32)
If your idea is to give her comfort and to help her, this is not helping her. This is not the decisions and the wheels are already in motion. And so let's figure out how we can get her to hospice and let's figure out how to make her comfortable and to follow her wishes. And I really had to be very, very adamant about saying that my mom, she valued her voice. She valued her ability to be able to express her opinion. And she spent hours and hours quilting, which required the use of both of her hands. She was not going to be able to do any of those things. And that's what gave her joy. So that was not, he was not doing her any favors by extending this period out.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:26)
That's social and people don't realize with hospice that it doesn't mean that you're going to die. It's just, you have a condition that may eventually lead to your passing, but people recover in hospice and go off hospice. So it's really about making you comfortable and still taking care of you, but just not going to extraordinary measures, right? Like a feeding tube, intubation that sort of thing.

Nancy Noever: (13:56)
Right. And it's about also preparing you for what the next stages will be.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:02)
Let nature take its course and as comfortable away as possible, that makes sense?

Nancy Noever: (14:08)
Yes. And that was, using just tranquilizers and things to calm my mom down as this process was happening. And it was, I was there through pretty much every shift change because there were so many nurses that took care of my mom. It was talking to them all the time about what was going on. And then the hospitals there, do you want food? Do you want? And my mom's not eating anything, I don't want anything. And so, and I don't want the smell of the food in the room. And then, somebody was coming through and played music for her. And it was a... I took one of her quilts and brought it in and put it across her. So then it was a couple of days to try and get her into hospice. We got to hospice, I think by about 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon.

Nancy Noever: (15:02)
And I hadn't had anything to eat because I'd been waiting on them to do the transfer. And the transfer was about somebody signing off on what the contents of my mom's purse. And once we finally got that done and the ambulance there, then we arrived, my brother arrived. We kind of hung out for a little while we were, and then I went to go grab dinner. I just pulled into the parking lot of a restaurant. And the hospice nurse called me and said that your mom had passed away. And my brother and I, before we had left, the hospice had a conversation with the nurse there saying, do we think we're 24 hours away? Do we think we're moments away? Do we think we're three or four more days away? And she was saying that usually it takes someone between seven and 10 days to die.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:56)
Your mom had an, should I call it an itinerary or a list?

Nancy Noever: (16:02)
My mom was ready to get on with it. So again, and she'd also said the nurse had also said that your mother is in active dying. And that usually is I think 48 hours.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:13)
On both ends of life, there's kind of a gestation period coming in and going out, which is painful and unpredictable, which is really fascinating to me because there is this process at the end of life. And again, hopefully people need to start talking about it so they're more comfort with it.

Nancy Noever: (16:33)
That's true. And that's something that nobody really talks about is what all this is. And so as soon as I heard, then I called my aunt, who is my mom's only surviving sibling. And they were very close and then talked to my brother and my brother came back up and we both sat with my mom for a few minutes, but my mom wasn't there. I mean, that's the thing is the, I didn't feel her presence there. Mom was ready to get on with it. So I stayed there for a little while. And then I went and found a quiet place in the hospice and my brother had done the same thing in a different place. And then we kind of after about half an hour or so we found each other and just kind of started talking a little bit.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:21)
Let me ask you in that time by yourself, what was going through your mind and your heart?

Nancy Noever: (17:31)
It was a lot of ums there, it was welcoming. It was basically saying mom have a safe journey. And it was me telling her in my head how much I loved her and how much I was going to miss her, but how proud I was of her to have the courage to do what needed to be done and a little sadness for not having the couple of months that we had, maybe I could have prevented some of the things leading up to the stroke, which is kind of silly. Strokes are not something you can prevent, but-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:21)
Also you can't see a pandemic coming necessarily, so there you go.

Nancy Noever: (18:27)
No. Well and that's the irony too, is that if the stroke had happened three weeks to a month later than the time I spent with my mom and being her advocate so she could die the way she wanted to, I would not have been able to do it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:48)
They wouldn't have let you in the hospital, that's right.

Nancy Noever: (18:52)
So they would have put a feeding tube into her. They would have done extraordinary measures to let her physically survive, but they would not have... She emotionally wouldn't have survived. And she certainly wouldn't have been in going into full-time nursing care, which is where she would need to be to do recovery. So my mother would have died miserably in that.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:18)
And alone.

Nancy Noever: (19:19)
And alone, yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:22)
One of the things that I thought was very impressive was how well you and your brother worked together during all this.

Nancy Noever: (19:29)
My brother and I have been close since we were kids. And we were, as I said before, we were debate partners together. So we're used to working a problem together, and we've always been able to communicate on some level and know each other. And I think trust each other really well. So, as I mentioned earlier that my brother is a scientist and he was really good about investigating, what our options were and doing some really deep dive into what probabilities of recovery were and to be able to translate some of the medical and scientific stuff in a really good way. And then I'm the one practical one that gets us from point A to point B. I mean, the critical points were when we're sitting there talking to the doctors and saying, so what are you saying? Are you saying palliative care?

Nancy Noever: (20:18)
Are you saying, put the feeding tube in. And I'm very clearly saying, no, we're not putting the feeding tube in. And so we're going for palliative care and I'm like, I'll sign whatever you want to, because I have had multiple conversations with one mother and I know this and they were like, okay. And I'm like, I had the papers that said I was the executor and that I had the directive and that it was within my powers. So in doing that my brother and I had had some conversations too, of she has a directive, but she's always wanted to fight. And I'm like, yeah, when there's a possibility that she's going to come out okay on the other side. And I think that's what all of us want. If there's a possibility that you can go back to normal, absolutely you want them to try whatever they-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:05)
Of course. But in a way, she was fighting to make sure that you knew, and that's a gift. She was making it clear to you, I want to go. My mom died when I was only 26 and she was only 58. She had colon cancer. And somewhere along the line, the New York times had an article about, you need to talk to your parents or parent about the will. And I read through that and I thought, because we have some family dynamics going on in my family. We'll just leave it at that for now. And the next time I was home visiting my father, we went on a little walk around the neighborhood in Buffalo. I believe I started by saying, "I'm going to ask you a question, dad, kind of a difficult one. And I just want you to know, I only care that documents are made out and you know, there won't be any squabbling when you're gone.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:02)
So I just want to make sure have you set up your will? Is it airtight, signed everything." And this is before I was in the profession I am in now, but I now hear so many stories about finding wills or trust documents in a drawer and they haven't been signed. that sort of thing. I said, I don't care who gets what? I just want to know that there won't be any legal fights. Because it's going to be hard enough to lose you. I will miss you terribly. And he really seemed to appreciate that and started saying, "Oh, it's all taken care of. It's split up between the three of you girls. And you'll each get an equal part." I said, dad, "I don't need to know that. Thank you." But that's not my biggest concern. I just don't while I'm grieving, losing you, I don't want to also be having to fight my siblings.

Nancy Noever: (22:56)
Right. And I mean, that was the because of mom's experience, then we also had my dad do a directive, which was very helpful when he had a stroke for my brother and the legal stuff we had to do. My father wanted to be, lived to be 100. And he literally fell out of his skin as he was dying. And his optimism was, I'm still going to break this. I'm still okay. And the Parkinson's had gotten to the point where he was having hallucinations. And so it was becoming difficult for him and for us. And that was another thing of my father might've physically been there, but the father that I knew, and I still loved him obviously, but the person that... I had five years to grieve my father because he had died really the father that I knew had died when he had the stroke five years earlier.

Nancy Noever: (24:00)
So it wasn't all bad, but there were also some, my dad was bedridden and in diapers and it was not, my father had been driving and living alone up until the moment that he had the stroke and he was a golfer and he was, a lot of things that he was not able to do in a 10 by 20 room. A 10 by 12. I lost both my parents within a two year period, so and other, and that's been the last three years. So it's still very fresh and there's still lots of things. I'm like, "Oh!" And my mother was a women's history teacher and this was the 100th year anniversary of women getting the vote. And I was like, oh, I wish I'd asked her about this. But there's all these things that you don't get a chance to, to talk about until they're gone and you don't even think of the questions.

Nancy Noever: (24:53)
And that's one of the things I'm doing with my aunt. My mom had delved really deeply into family history and done it from a historical standpoint, as well as the family history part of it. I think it was really important in that conversation we had in the lobby after we had just made the decision, because I think in talking, in hearing other people's stories, that was a critical moment because my brother and I were in agreement that this is what we were doing. And that this was the right thing to do as opposed to one or more of the family members saying no, but she's got to survive and she can still live through this and all that kind of stuff that you have of people not being able to let go. And once we've made the decision that mom was going to die, then it became all right, how do we make her comfortable? What papers do we need to sign? She wanted to be cremated. So it was arranging that.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:55)
What people don't realize is, as soon as someone passes, there is this enormous list of things that instantly need to be taken care of. The funeral arrangements, the obituary.

Nancy Noever: (26:07)
My mom was, and she had been a teacher in Oklahoma, but she didn't have a huge number of friends here in Huntsville. And so it was, she didn't really want to have a funeral. I think out of part of a fear that no one would show up which the irony of how many people were affected by her death and how they rallied around me said that, that she was more loved than she thought she was. And then I also, and the mom was like, my ashes need to go to Pensacola, Florida.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:36)
Why Pensacola?

Nancy Noever: (26:39)
My mom loved the ocean. And so that was, she would go, there were several points in her life where she would go and spend several weeks to several months,

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:48)
Spending her next evolution, whatever that may be on the beach or near the beach. So not a bad thing.

Nancy Noever: (26:58)
Yeah. And my mom, I don't think there was anything really left unsaid because on our family, it was short. It was always, you should spend time with people while they're alive. You should express your feelings with them while you're alive, you should do it not for special holidays, you should do it every day. And so we've sort of been living that way for the last several years. So there wasn't much that was left. I would, every time I left the hospital room, I would say to my mom, I love you. And so in my heart, I've been saying it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:37)
Nancy, I want to thank you so much for being this open with us about your whole experience with your mother's passing. It's been so touching and also I think really informative for people. Thank you for your courage. In the next episode, you will hear about Nancy's journey as the executor. That was a year and a half ago that your mom died and you're still dealing with some things and Nancy will be here to speak about it in her remarkable way. Thank you so much for being with me.

Nancy Noever: (28:07)
Thank you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (28:11)
Thank you so much for listening to, How to Move Your Mom and still be on speaking terms afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes, featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:02)
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:16)
How to Move Your Mom (and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward) provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding and humor.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:31)
I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner. And here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:42)
Ken, welcome so much to How to Move Your Mom (and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward). I'm very honored that you're here to talk about both your practices.

Ken Kossoff: (00:52)
Well, thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:54)
Well, you're fantastic. And we've worked together a lot and I just, your clients think you're wonderful and you are a dream to work with alongside being part of a team with you. Ken Kossoff has been an attorney for over 35 years and his practice is based in Westlake Village.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:10)
He's a certified estate planning, probate and trust law specialist here in California. I don't hear a lot of attorneys having that certification, so that's important.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:21)
He's very experienced and compassionate when it comes to helping his clients negotiate the labyrinth of legal issues that inevitably arise as people age into their later years. He's been interviewed by The Wall Street Journal, Fox Business News and lots of other media outlets because he's such an expert.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:39)
Ken is also the founder of, co-founder, pardon me, of Solo Aging Solutions, which provides healthcare agents to uphold their client's healthcare wishes should the need arise. We're going to talk about that a lot more in just a few minutes because it's a very important service and very unique that is offered through Solo Aging Solution.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:02)
Ken, what's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

Ken Kossoff: (02:07)
Well, my favorite memory of one of my grandmothers was when I was probably in my mid-teens. I had an older cousin who had a lot of girlfriends, and I remember my grandmother saying to me, "I've told him he needs to make sure his girlfriends take a pill," and then "It's not an aspirin."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:30)
I love her already.

Ken Kossoff: (02:33)
Yeah. Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:33)
That's fantastic. You also told me about a very difficult memory you had that was from-

Ken Kossoff: (02:38)
Yeah, yeah. My least favorite memory of my same grandmother. I'm using terms that I now know. At the time, I was maybe 20, maybe 21. She was hospitalized and then discharged to either a rehabilitation facility or a skilled nursing facility. And I went to visit her for the first, actually it was the first and last time.

Ken Kossoff: (03:01)
When I got there, she just almost was crying and pleading with me to take her out of there. And as a 20- or 21-year-old, I mean, I'd never been to a skilled nursing facility before, and I didn't know what to do. I knew I couldn't take her out of there. I mean, she was supposed to be there. She needed care. And it was traumatic, quite honestly.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:24)
Yeah. At that age, sure.

Ken Kossoff: (03:26)
Yeah. Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:27)
Thank you for talking about that because it really emphasizes how every generation in a family is impacted when somebody's going through the difficulties that eventually arise with later life.

Ken Kossoff: (03:40)
For a lot of people who have, not happy of where they're at in their later lives, they might not really think about the impact that it has on, especially their grandchildren or great-grandchildren.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:53)
True. And all the more reason to start talking about your own later life sooner rather than later and plan for it.

Ken Kossoff: (04:01)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:01)
And speaking of planning, what's the focus of your legal work, please?

Ken Kossoff: (04:07)
Well, I do estate planning and what's known as life care planning. Life care planning is a model of practice where you have estate planning attorneys who have either a social worker or a nurse on staff, or are both a social worker and a nurse to assist clients.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:22)
It's wonderful that you have someone like that on your staff because very few attorneys do. I remember asking you about what drew you to this particular field of law, and you said you wanted a more holistic way of approaching people.

Ken Kossoff: (04:41)
Yeah. I mean, I remember I was meeting with a husband and a wife, and we were talking about a whole bunch of things relating to incapacity, mortality, all the things people don't want to talk about about. About their children, about their thinking about life, death, healthcare, their kids.

Ken Kossoff: (04:58)
As they were walking out of my office, the husband turned to me and said, "By the time this process is over, you're going to know us better than anybody else knows us." That made me feel good. And that in so many respects is true.

Ken Kossoff: (05:11)
People talk about very intimate thoughts. And I like trying to make sure that their thinking is reflected in their estate planning documents and that they're not just boilerplate that have nothing to do with them other than their [inaudible 00:05:26].

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:26)
Yeah. And that's not who you are. One of the things that's really remarkable is that you really do show such compassion and empathy. What should people be asking attorneys like you when they're interviewing someone to figure out who should put together their estate plan?

Ken Kossoff: (05:47)
Well, I think some people are just focused on price, and I can understand that. But I think the real question should be: What's your approach to people in situations like mine, as I've described them to you?

Ken Kossoff: (06:03)
Frankly, everybody's come to me and everybody always says it's simple estate. No matter how complex it is, they think it's simple. That's just a natural thing to say. And so I think it's really how do you approach people in my situation? What can-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:18)
How would somebody describe your approach?

Ken Kossoff: (06:21)
I think my approach is probably a more human approach. I mean, I'm not just looking at the legal and tax issues. I'm looking at the human issues involved in dealing with incapacity or death. That's why I realize, even if somebody has a ton of money and could afford to have their loved one at home with care for 24 hours a day, seven days a week, life is still going to be very miserable and very difficult.

Ken Kossoff: (06:51)
They need to be prepared for that and understand. They're not the first ones who have experienced it. And try and make sure that the caregiving spouse or the caregiving child is not the one who drops dead first because of all the stress involved in having a loved one for whom you're responsible for caring when you've probably never done that before.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:13)
Yeah. It's a whole new thing. It's like being the executor of a will. Suddenly, you have to take care of something that you don't know anything about. And it is amazing. The statistic is really frightening of how often caregivers, especially if they're caregiving spouses, pass away before the person they've been taking care of does because of, what you said, the stress and everything and the lack of their own care for themselves.

Ken Kossoff: (07:35)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:36)
Very [crosstalk 00:07:36].

Ken Kossoff: (07:36)
I have seen that with caregiving spouses. I've also seen that with the 51-year-old son of an 88-year-old father.

Ken Kossoff: (07:42)
One of the things about comparing it to an executor, I heard an attorney once who said, "The problem is not when you die. The problem is when you won't die." So being an executor or being the trustee of a trust is very complex and is very difficult, but in a lot of respects, pales in comparison to what you have to deal with if the person you're caring for is incapacitated instead of death.

Ken Kossoff: (08:06)
The most difficult cases are the one where there's live issues going on. I mean, one of the most horrible things I've experienced is a 55-year-old diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's.

Ken Kossoff: (08:20)
Those are very difficult conversations to have with people, with the person and their spouse and finding out about it and reacting to it. This was a person who I'd known beforehand. But I get a lot of satisfaction of just trying to be with them and walk them through what they're experiencing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:43)
You're really showing your humanity with them. And I find that when we're working in my field too and many others who take care of older adults and their families, in a way it's kind of lovely because you really, you should be showing your humanity. It makes them more comfortable. And especially at the end of life, I think people really appreciate that.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:04)
Now, it's interesting with estate planning; you should do a health care directive. And in terms of one's healthcare when you're incapacitated and what have you, what you were just talking about too, when people are in a coma or they have dementia or something like that, this is where Solo Aging Solutions can be so helpful. Can you explain why you launched the Solo Aging Solutions and also who it serves and how?

Ken Kossoff: (09:31)
Okay. As I mentioned earlier, several years ago, six years or so now, I brought on a medical social worker onto my staff. And there were a lot of times we would give presentations to senior centers or other groups, sometimes just meeting with the clients of the firm.

Ken Kossoff: (09:53)
Invariably, in every presentation we made, especially to a larger group, somebody would raise their hand and they would say, "Look, I've got somebody who could manage my money. I'm not worried about that. What I don't have is anybody who could manage my healthcare. Either I don't have children or my children aren't functional or live far away, or I don't want to place this burden on them."

Ken Kossoff: (10:18)
And as soon as somebody would ask that question, others would chime in and raise their hands and say, "We have the same issue."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:25)
Wow.

Ken Kossoff: (10:26)
The reality of the situation is I didn't have a good answer. You can't say friends and family, because if you say friends and family, they wouldn't have been asking the question.

Ken Kossoff: (10:38)
There are private fiduciaries, people who act as trustees and executors and conservators for a living. And some private fiduciaries or lots of private fiduciaries, actually, will act as an agent under a healthcare directive as the price they need to pay in order to manage the money, where their skills and also revenue primarily comes from.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:00)
Yeah.

Ken Kossoff: (11:01)
Some of them have told me they don't like doing it. Others have told me they don't think they do it very well.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:06)
I mean, literally when you are the healthcare agent, you literally have people's lives in your hands.

Ken Kossoff: (11:13)
Yes. And a lot of us just conceive of that as you get a call at 4:00 in the morning, your loved one had a stroke. "We're either going to give life support or not. What do we do?"

Ken Kossoff: (11:22)
But it's also if the person can't make decisions for themselves, they need to make changes to the medication. They need to get authorization to change medication, to make other medical decisions as to what care to give them short of life support or what care to withhold or withdraw.

Ken Kossoff: (11:40)
So it was because we didn't have a good answer to that question, and I felt bad, that we created Solo Aging Solutions. Solo Aging Solutions is intended to fill that gap where we will act as agents under a healthcare directive. We will not manage money. If people ask us to manage money, the answer's, "No, that's not what we do."

Ken Kossoff: (12:02)
We do only healthcare decision making and we have to do it in two ways. Number one is to make sure that the client's desires are known on a current basis, that their healthcare conditions and prognosis are known on a current basis. The reason why we need to know all that is because our personnel need to feel comfortable with this enormous decision, this position of huge responsibility, life and death, that they now have in their hands.

Ken Kossoff: (12:36)
I mean, my business partner Katie Wiltfong, who's the medical social worker, joined me a number of years ago at my firm. What we need to do is to make sure that we're comfortable and current. And that's why we established the protocol where we have multiple communications with our clients on a regular basis. And [crosstalk 00:12:56]-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:55)
That's extraordinary. And what kind of training do your healthcare agents go through to qualify?

Ken Kossoff: (13:01)
Well, I mean, Katie is a medical social worker who has more than a decade in hospice, so she's been dealing with life and death for a good period of time. One of the things I have told people over the years is Katie could walk into a facility and judge whether the smell is due to the fact that this is just the way some facilities smell because they're in the healthcare business or that there's a hygiene problem.

Ken Kossoff: (13:28)
So it's just, you have to feel comfortable with the issues. You have to feel comfortable with the places where our clients are going to be. And we have to feel comfortable that we know what our clients would want and not want in these circumstances.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:43)
Yeah. Well, and also possess that knowledge. What kind of people would you hire as healthcare agents? What would be their ideal background?

Ken Kossoff: (13:54)
I think their ideal background is probably a hospice background because people in the hospice field, this is what they do. They help people transition from life to death and to die peacefully in as little pain as possible. So I think that's a very good, I don't necessarily know perfect, but that's about as good a background as you could have. And then they-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:17)
Also they're comfortable with the medical issues and things like that. They're well aware of how medications work, that sort of thing.

Ken Kossoff: (14:22)
Yeah. And also because sometimes hospice comes in and the people pass away two days later. But a lot of times-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:29)
That happened with my dad.

Ken Kossoff: (14:30)
Oh, it did?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:30)
That happened with my father. Sorry to interrupt you.

Ken Kossoff: (14:32)
That's okay. A lot of times they're in there for weeks or months on end. And if the patient is not able to give direction on their healthcare, they're very familiar with having to call the agent under the healthcare directive. Because again, it's not just a situation where you get the call at 4:00 in the morning to pull the plug. It's all the steps leading to that over the days or weeks or months before somebody passes away.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:56)
Yeah. Well, and suppose somebody's in a horrible car accident and they're unconscious and their leg is badly injured. And the doctor says, "Well, we may need to amputate."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:07)
Somebody who's an expert like that and understands the whole background of how it will affect the rest of their lives can make a knowledgeable decision, thinking about it and who the patient is. And also listen to what the doctor is explaining what the exact injuries are to determine if that's really necessary to make that decision for the client.

Ken Kossoff: (15:29)
Right. And also, is that only going to impact their leg or has their head been injured too? Is there a brain injury?

Ken Kossoff: (15:35)
So that's, I think, what a lot of clients ... There's probably a lot of people out there who would say, "Okay, if my leg has to be amputated, that's fine if I'm otherwise functional mentally and maybe otherwise functional physically."

Ken Kossoff: (15:47)
But on the other hand, I remember a few years ago, a client came in and was talking about how the doctors had said, "To let your loved one continue to live, we need to amputate all four limbs." And the person said, "How much longer will that give my loved one?" And the doctor said, "Two weeks."

Ken Kossoff: (16:12)
It was like, why would they even mention that? It's not an alternative and it didn't make sense, at least in my opinion. And certainly in their opinion because they said, "No. And, yeah, let them go."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:26)
When should someone consider engaging a healthcare agent at Solo Aging Solutions?

Ken Kossoff: (16:33)
Well, I think when you're capable of instructing us what you want to do or what you would want done in these circumstances. If somebody is already demented or otherwise unable to communicate to us what their desires would be, that probably means that they cannot sign a healthcare directive.

Ken Kossoff: (16:53)
The biggest surprise to us from the perspective of when we first started and how we saw our demographic is that we had a couple of referrals from attorneys of single men, both of whom were 47 years old, total unrelated to each other. They were just unmarried, no children, did not want their parents involved.

Ken Kossoff: (17:15)
It's when people realize that they don't have anybody to make the decisions and they want the peace of mind to know that they do have somebody to make the decisions if they want to participate in our program. For some people, we are just, we are number two instead of number one.

Ken Kossoff: (17:33)
Again, behind the kids. But if the kids can't get here, because even for the kid who lives on the East Coast, prior to March of 2020, everybody said you can just hop on an airplane and come out. And then we learn that maybe that's not guaranteed in the future. So we're the local eyes and ears. Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:51)
That's wonderful. That's so true. I love that you can be the backup if somebody can't be there. That's wonderful. I didn't know that, so I'm glad I know that now.

Ken Kossoff: (17:59)
Yeah. The kid is most likely going to be leaning on us heavily to try and understand what's going on and to tap into the background of our healthcare agents. Because the adult child, unless they're in the healthcare field, probably doesn't have the background.

Ken Kossoff: (18:19)
Yeah. Right now we are focused in Southern California and with plans to expand elsewhere, hopefully in the not-too-distant future.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:28)
Awesome.

Ken Kossoff: (18:28)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:29)
Let's talk about a healthcare directive, because if someone doesn't have one, I do, they may not know what goes into it. They may be a little nervous about really going and answering all the questions. What kind of things go into a healthcare directive?

Ken Kossoff: (18:47)
Well, in a healthcare directive, the first thing you're doing is appointing somebody who makes decisions for you if you cannot make those decisions on your own. I mean, it is possible to give somebody immediate authority.

Ken Kossoff: (18:59)
But most people do not, unless they're older or have a terminal illness. Then they're pretty confident they're not going to be able to make their own decisions for a very long period of time.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:08)
Yeah.

Ken Kossoff: (19:10)
But, so you're appointing somebody. You're hopefully appointing an alternative that that person cannot serve. Maybe two alternatives. And then you're trying to give them directions on what your thinking is. You're basically saying, "If I'm in an irreversible condition from which death is expected in some period of time, what would I want?"

Ken Kossoff: (19:33)
You could get more particular if you'd like to. You could talk about some of the things that often are not in healthcare directives and are in what are known as POLST, physician orders for life-sustaining treatments, which are a different document.

Ken Kossoff: (19:46)
I was giving a presentation on healthcare directives once with a nurse. And she said in her healthcare directive, it says "You could put a feeding tube in me for 10 days. If I'm not ready to feed myself after that, just pull it out and let me go."

Ken Kossoff: (19:59)
And what you're trying to do, regardless of what's written down, is you want to have conversations on a semi-regular basis with the agents under your healthcare directive. Because what I tell clients is that you never want somebody thinking, "Am I going to let my mother die today?"

Ken Kossoff: (20:15)
You want them thinking, "Mom can't talk. I know exactly what she would want in this situation. I'm just her spokesperson. I'm just expressing what she would say if she were in this position. I'm not making any decisions. She made the decisions when she told me and instructed me on what she would want and what she would not want."

Ken Kossoff: (20:33)
So that's still enormous responsibility that weighs heavily in the minds of the person making the decision.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:40)
Especially if you're a family or just a very dear friend or a spouse, a partner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:46)
Let's go back to estate planning. It's really not just about a will. I think that's what people think it is, and so they download something from one of those online places and just figure, "Oh, I got a will. I'm done. I'm good." Not a good idea. Let the expert, Ken, explain it to you.

Ken Kossoff: (21:02)
Okay. I mean, the first thing is if you're going in for estate planning, what you want is a comprehensive estate plan. If you're going to use a will and not use a trust and that's a discussion you have with your attorney, that's fine.

Ken Kossoff: (21:17)
But a will is effective only after you die, so it does nothing during incapacity. Doesn't authorize anybody to manage your affairs while you're incapacitated. So the question is, "How's that going to happen?"

Ken Kossoff: (21:29)
I think for my clients, I want their documents to express their views. Not just the legal stuff that lawyers want to see in there but the views of the clients.

Ken Kossoff: (21:43)
Sometimes, clients should write out separate instructions or letters to their family. I mean, if some lawyer writes a boring, legal document as somebody's trying to remember their father who died three days ago, they're not going to sit there reading his trust. But if the father wrote a letter telling how much she loved his children and grandchildren and maybe some lessons and ...

Ken Kossoff: (22:06)
Working on one right now where the client sort of has a message to a judge if there's ever a dispute. Where he basically said, "I know that sometimes at least one side is upset with the resolution of litigation, if not both sides. And if my family's going to fight over my estate, Judge, I would like you to come up with a decision that pisses both sides off. Because if they're going to fight about my estate, they should be upset because I'll be upset. And if I can do anything about it in the afterlife, I will."

Ken Kossoff: (22:37)
I mean, even when I do that, it's still boilerplate. It's important legal stuff in there, but it's boilerplate. But I like the client's family being able to look at the document and say, "Oh, this is the exact kind of thing that my father would've said."

Ken Kossoff: (22:51)
As I tell people, the only thing I know for certain that something's going to happen that we don't anticipate. And if it's addressed in the trust document, then it makes it easier to deal with and less likely to require judicial intervention or something along those lines.

Ken Kossoff: (23:07)
I had a client once who came to me when there was a dispute with his sibling over his mother's trust. And he previously told me how proud he was that through his efforts, his mother's trust was a lot shorter than all these long documents that most lawyers draw.

Ken Kossoff: (23:25)
Unfortunately for him, it was missing one paragraph that would've resolved the issue. Instead, he litigated with his sibling for a considerable period of time, and if one boilerplate paragraph had been in there, it would've been too late for the sibling to do anything.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:41)
Well, there you go.

Ken Kossoff: (23:42)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:43)
And that's why they come to attorneys like you who are smart and know how to express why something needs to be there. It's ridiculous because I hate to think how much money they spent on all the legal fees that otherwise would've gone to them or whomever were the beneficiaries.

Ken Kossoff: (23:58)
Yeah. It's amazing how much people will spend. Just the way I explained it is, "You broke my GI Joe when I was six and you were eight, and we're now 66 and 68, but I'm going to get back at you for that." And that's sort of the way it happens.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:15)
It's such misplaced anger because it's really, the bigger issue is the grief and it's just being expressed in a very odd way. Or, like you say, they have this old grudge or something.

Ken Kossoff: (24:24)
Yeah. Deep-seated psychological issues with siblings. Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:29)
"Go buy yourself another GI Joe," is what I'd say to that person.

Ken Kossoff: (24:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:34)
One last thing. I've heard, and actually my father put both my sister and I on his healthcare directive. We don't have a great relationship, and I was just relieved because we did agree on what to do.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:48)
But it's really not a wise idea to have multiple parties on healthcare directives and as executors and trustees. Am I correct in that?

Ken Kossoff: (24:56)
Well, I think it's less wise to do it on healthcare directives than as trustees. The reason I say that is because let's say you have three children, and you say, "I want my three children to be my decision makers under my healthcare directive and it's majority rule." And two of them say, effectively, "Pull the plug," and one says, "Don't pull the plug."

Ken Kossoff: (25:18)
What I would expect the hospital to say for risk management purposes is, "Go get a court order." Because they're not going to want to pull the plug on the majority rule because they're afraid that the dissenter is going to sue them. So that's why I fear having more than one healthcare decision maker.

Ken Kossoff: (25:37)
Some people still insist on it, and that is certainly their prerogative. And if it creates problems, they understand that. But I'm more cautious about doing that with healthcare directives than I am about doing that with trusts.

Ken Kossoff: (25:51)
See, but one of the things you can do on a healthcare directive, if you have an attorney and the attorney signs the particular affidavit saying that he or she advised you, is you could exclude people from interfering with your health care decision.

Ken Kossoff: (26:08)
So if you have family members or friends, or you're concerned about some public agency that's specified in the probate code, the public guardian, you could list those people and effectively say they do not have standing in court to sue concerning your healthcare directive and the acts that your agents are taking or declining to take.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:31)
If a divorce isn't final and there is a spouse legally still hanging out there somewhere who wants to interfere, that's very important. I'm glad you shared that. Thank you.

Ken Kossoff: (26:41)
Yeah. Because most likely your spouse would want to kill you before you need it. Yeah. [crosstalk 00:26:44].

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:45)
Yeah. All the more reason not to have them interfering with your healthcare.

Ken Kossoff: (26:48)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:49)
Ken, thank you so much for sitting down and talking with me because all of that information was so helpful. You're a wonderful estate planning attorney. And also Solo Aging Solutions, it's a unique service that's offered and it's just wonderful. Thank you so much for being with me.

Ken Kossoff: (27:06)
All right. My pleasure. Thanks.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (27:09)
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom and (and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward). Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes, featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty :

Welcome to another episode of How to Move Your Mom (and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward). I am with the illustrious Kendyl Young of DIGGS, and Kendyl is the owner of DIGGS. And she's been in real estate for 34 years. It's extraordinary. You never know what to look at, or unless you started as a teenager, my goodness. She's a nationally recognized speaker, which is why she's going to be so great on this podcast. And she's a consultant to agents and teams in real estate who are really looking to grow without sacrificing the client experience.

Marty :

So she really knows how to take care of her clients and move the deal along for lack of a better term, and also find just the right fit for her clients. She's very adept at that. Recently, Kendyl launched ADU DIGGS, which we're going to talk a lot about. ADU standing for additional dwelling unit-

Kendyl :

Accessory.

Marty :

Accessory. Thank you. It just blanked. Accessory.

Kendyl :

Think of it like a backyard house.

Marty :

Exactly, exactly because that's what it is. So this company, the ADU DIGGS is a prefab ADU company. So things are prefabricated, making it very easy. And it's designed to serve homeowners who are in established neighborhoods where you can build ADUs. I'm curious, Kendyl, is ADU just a California term or is that a general nationwide term? Okay, great.

Kendyl :

It's actually a global term. It's also used in Canada and the UK.

Marty :

Fabulous, great to know that. Thank you because I was wondering about that. So I always start off with asking you, what's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

Kendyl:

My grandmother is an extraordinary woman and she raised five kids, a single mother during the depression in a small farming town in California called Bakersfield. And after the war, there was a little bit of a problem with Asians.

Marty :

Oh yeah. Oh, there still is. But yes, exactly.

Kendyl :

Right. So she was just an extraordinary woman. Anyway. So many stories that I could tell, but the one that evokes the most heart memories is going fishing with my grandparents. That was their passion. And we would go out to Pyramid Lake and I'd be on that boat with my grandparents and me and my little brother. It's hot because it's summer and we're in the bow of the boat, kind of just half awake, half asleep. And grandma and grandpa are in the [inaudible 00:03:41] and grandpa's fishing and grandma's rustling up lunch. It's always bologna sandwiches, a little bit of tomato, a soda, some chips.

Kendyl :

I feel the... I can hear the waves lapping against the bow of the boat and the sun is just beating down and I'm so drowsy because I'm so hot and it's just all is right with the world.

Marty :

Hmm. 

Marty :

I just love that memory, that feeling of safety and beauty and those sounds how lovely that's great. So what is, for our audience, what exactly is the focus of your work?

Kendyl :

At its essence, it is helping people transition into better versions of themselves, which sounds so trite and cliche. But I have three companies, one focused on real estate agents, one focused on people who are looking for housing, and one focused on ADUs.

Kendyl :

And at the core, the whole purpose for it is to help people get to a better place in their life. And to do it, not through sales trickery, but through a discovery of what they actually need and delivering the resources and knowledge is what you need to make that transition. 

Marty:

What do you wish people knew about what you do?

Kendyl :

I wish they knew that I wasn't a salesperson. I wish they knew that I was... That I'm actually... Sales as defined by influence, manipulating, or cajoling people into doing something they didn't want to do. I categorically fail at that every day because well, mostly I'm not interested in doing that. So I wish that they knew that I'm just a super curious person who likes to identify solutions.

Marty :

That's wonderful. And you do, and that's why you have the three companies. Because it is in the same realm, but it caters to really specific needs that people have.

Marty :

So let's talk about ADU DIGGS. One of my first questions, and I think the audience too, what are the requirements of an ADU, the size, what it's used for, et cetera?

Kendyl :

Well, if anybody's actually really interested in that, you can send an email to me or to Marty and I can give you my ADU cheat sheet, which summarizes all of the important laws that were passed in 2020. So that'll kind of give you all of this stuff. But kind of the big talking points. An ADU is a separate living space. It's got to be complete enough that you could rent it to somebody. It's got to have its own kitchen, its own entrance. So it's got to be complete, it can't be a rec room or a shack.

Kendyl :

The largest that it can be is 1100 square feet. No, 1200 square feet, excuse me. But anything over 750 square feet, the cities can charge something called impact fees, which can dramatically increase how much your ADU will cost to build. Under 750 feet and the cities are not allowed to do it. So that's a pretty big deal.

Kendyl :

The other thing to remember is that you do not have to provide parking as long as your ADU is within a half a mile of public transportation. So any bus stop will do. Any bus stop we'll do as long as you're within a half mile of a bus stop, you're not going to have to create off-street parking, which is super important for anyone who wants to convert a garage.

Marty :

That's great. And question for you, so is there a limit as to how big the full property with the house needs to be? A half acre or something?

Kendyl :

No. There can be no restrictions on lot size. So it is possible, though not easy, to put an ADU on say a 3000 square foot lot. But you do have to conform to setbacks, which are four feet, four feet and five feet. So it's less than new construction. And you can also add to your current residents, right? So that's how you get something on a 3000 square foot lot. You would actually add something that we call a junior ADU, which means that it's part of the structure. You could even carve out a...

Kendyl :

If you've got a 4,000 square foot house and there's a master bedroom suite on one side of the house, you could actually carve out a portion of your property, make a separate entrance from the outside, install a kitchenette and it's now a junior ADU that you can rent out to somebody else. So that's perfect for a senior who maybe wants to maintain the privacy of their residents, but they want to have a home healthcare worker who has their own quarters. They could carve out a junior ADU.

Marty :

Interesting. So there are number of different uses for an ADU. Obviously additional rent income if you bring in somebody who has to live there because Lord knows we have a housing issue in LA.

Kendyl :

Which is why we have ADUs.

Marty :

Exactly. But to what we discussed on how to move your mom, it's wonderful for older adults. And I actually hadn't thought about that in terms of an older adult, having someone living with them to take care of them.

Kendyl :

Absolutely, think of it... Well, think of it this way. You have a niece or a grand niece that you love and you are older, not to the point where you need professional home health care, but a companion would be really useful, right? The younger relative, they don't want grandma to be all up in their space. They want their privacy. They want whatever. A junior ADU or an ADU is a perfect solution for somebody like that. Everybody gets their privacy. But you also have the security of somebody who you know, love and trust that is right there on the premises to help you with groceries, maybe some cleaning and there just on the other side of the door in case you need to go to the doctor or what have you.

Marty :

Or if you've stopped driving and you need... Instead of waiting for other forms of transportation, they can help you with that, which is great. And also if you get to tired... Because as you get older, you tend to get fatigued more easily. That just happens. And so they can also be kind of your housekeeper and things like that, obviously [you have to pay them 00:12:01].

Kendyl :

But so many permutations that solves for that. But I want my independence and privacy.

Marty :

It's so smart of you. It's your big heart and also just so smart of you to have this business because as you and I both know that the baby boomers and a lot of current older adults want to live out their lives in their home. They don't want to move. They don't necessarily want to move to a later life living community and so this is the perfect solution. Also, it's great for couples who might be baby boomers who have parents that they would rather have closer to them.

Kendyl :

Absolutely. I see a ton of interest from people who are boomers. They want to house mom or dad. It's usually because mom or dad has become a widow/widower. And so now they're like, "Ugh, I want mom or dad to be closer to me. I don't want them rattling around in that house that is two stories or dangerous or has so much maintenance, whatever. And I'm going to entice them to come live with me because I'm going to build them a beautiful new structure in the backyard with all the privacy and independence that they would want. But they're still close enough that I feel secure, that I'm taking care of them. And increasing the value of my house while I'm doing it."

Marty :

Well, that's the thing. ADUs really do add value to your property because it literally can be a rental property when you sell it. So the next owner can rent that out and pay at least a lot of their mortgage with the rental income.

Kendyl:

I'm also having a lot of people, boomers, who are mom and dad sells their primary residence. And then they gift them the money necessary to build the ADU. And that way the parent feels like they're not mooching off of their adult child. 

Marty:

So let's talk about your prefabricated ADUs that you provide.

Kendyl :

Well if you twist my arm, sure.

Marty :

Yes. I'm twisting, I'm twisting.

Kendyl :

let's talk. Let's talk, girlfriend. What would you like to know?

Marty :

I was going to say, "describe them to me." Square footage, what they're like.

Kendyl :

There's a lot of ways you can do an ADU, I just got to put that out there. A lot of people are going to go with the garage conversion idea because it's faster than a lot of site construction and it's typically the least expensive way to go. But it's also typically the lowest quality. Not always, but typically.

Kendyl :

So when we're talking about housing mom and dad, you should be housing them to the lifestyle to which they become accustomed, which is usually not a drafty old garage. I'm just saying. But building a site built... That's what we call it, site built. A site built ADU from scratch in your backyard will take anywhere from eight months to over a year to do.

Kendyl :

And you will have Mr. Contractor and his merry band of subcontractors banging around, causing dust and havoc and showing bits of their part that you really don't need to see on a daily basis and impinging upon your peace and tranquility of your daily life for the entire time while they're doing it.

Marty :

Not to mention that the older adult needs to wait that long to move in.

Kendyl :

Correct. Well, it's becoming because of the constriction of building materials and labor. There's not a lot of ways around that these days. But with a prefab... And I should also say when you do a site built, somebody, usually the homeowner, is responsible for getting permits. For getting the engineering, for figuring out the plan, getting an architect to figure out the design, both inside and outside. So floor plan and also what it looks like on the outside. Figuring out should the unit be oriented on the house or away from the house? Are we going to do separate utilities? What is that going to take? Battling with utilities. I mean, there's just... And then there's just aesthetics. Picking out light fixtures and plumbing fixtures and flooring.

Marty :

Which can be fun for some people, because I mean, this is nationwide. And so it can be fun for some people to do that, it's just entirely up to you.

Kendyl :

Right. And if that's your jam man, go for it and I can refer you to an HGTV crew while you're at it. It's just, that's awesome. Prefab are for the people where, what I just described makes them want to just sink into the ground and say, "You know what? I don't need an ADU."

Kendyl :

For those people, prefab is a wonderful option because it arrives at your house 90% complete. And what I mean by that is the permits are done, the engineering's done, the energy calculation so it's energy efficient, done. We've picked out all of your countertops and your cabinets and your flooring and your lighting fixtures and your windows are done. Everything is done. This is as close to pushing the easy button as I can imagine.

Kendyl :

So it shows up at your doorstep 90% done. And then we either pick it up with a crane and lift it and fly it. It's so cool, a house flying over the roof of your house. Which is how pre-fab is done and then we have a specific solution that isn't being done in the industry at all.

Kendyl :

We have a lot of mature trees and overhead electrical lines. That makes it hard to fly a house over the roof of your house. We actually developed a way to use a forklift to drive it down your driveway. And in that gap between your detached garage and your house, we'd go right through that ground and then we can put in there.

Marty :

How wide is it?

Kendyl :

I need 16 feet high and I need a little over 10 feet wide-

Kendyl :

 That fits with most of our 1930s, 1940s housing. And the look is very much to blend with historic architecture. We have a stucco side look that goes well with Mediterranean Spanish. We also have a vertical board and batten, so think your basic modern farmhouse look. Magnolia Farms anybody? It goes well with our ranch style homes, our traditional homes. And then we have a shingle side that was specifically designed to blend in with our craftsmen and our English tudors.

Kendyl :

If your house would look good with climbing roses, the shingle sided one is for you, and so it blends in.

Marty :

That's wonderful, because if people are going to go prefab or if they're just wanting to do it on their own, that gives them idea. You really do want to think of how it meshes with your current home, the current structure on the property. 

Kendyl :

If you've ever been inside a house where it's blatantly obvious there was an addition done, because it just sticks out like a sore thumb. Adding an ADU is the same way, it can either stick out like a sore thumb or it can blend like it was all designed to be together.

Marty :

Yeah. And that, again, that helps the value. If it looks completely different, you do want to build these things well with permits wherever you are. I mean, you can do this in an urban landscape, like what we've got here in LA, an urban-suburban here as well, and also rural. It's so worth it to have your parents close to you. Because another reason why it's a good idea to either, if you're an older adult, build one. Or if you're the adult kids, build one for mom or dad, is because of social isolation, which is a big contributor to dementia.

Kendyl :

And this is a way to do it because I hear from the seniors that I help all the time. I hear them talk about how they don't want to be a burden on their children and they don't like the idea of living with their kids. But when you take that away, they're like, "Yes, but I am lonely. I do love my grandkids. I do like being with them. I just don't want to be with them. I want to be with them, but I just don't want to be with them. You know what I mean?"

Marty :

Exactly. I want to have my own entrance. But yeah. I hadn't thought of that as grandma or grandpa's the built-in babysitter. Another reason to do it, here you go.

Kendyl :

Or a built-in you know, "what are you thinking?" Okay, maybe I'm thinking of my own grandparents. Because the story that I told doesn't talk about how grandma, we were all afraid of her so there's that.

Marty :

That's true. Yes. Keep in mind those family dynamics. Yes, that is fun and tricky part of what we do. Absolutely. Because honestly, when the big shifts in later life start to happen and people are moving, as you know, the most cozy of families, butt heads. It's just normal. That doesn't mean it's any more fun, but it's normal.

Kendyl :

Right. And a separate backyard house is a wonderful full solution for most family dynamics.

Marty :

Yeah. It's just such a great idea. And I'm glad finally LA county passed that ordinance to make ADUs easy to build.

Kendyl :

It's actually a statewide ordinance. So anywhere in California, and for those of you who are listening to Marty's podcast, not in California, this is a movement that is going across the United States. We have a nationwide housing shortage.

Kendyl :

We also have a new focus on keeping our seniors closer to us because COVID has shown us how dangerous it can be to institutionalize our family members. And this is something that is happening in Colorado and in Iowa and in Indiana. And I mean I just pay attention to ADU news across the country and it's happening everywhere.

We're all faced with ways to find affordable housing solutions for our loved ones. 

Kendyl :

We have to find good sustainable solutions that keep our communities in our families together and strong.

Marty :

What do you wish people knew about what you do, both as regarding the ADUs, but also as a realtor who works with a lot of older adults. What do you wish people knew about you and what you do?

Kendyl :

I wish that they knew that to me, it's not a sale. That to me, it is finding ways to help you through a life transition that cuts down on the fear and the chaos and, I guess, the prizes. Prizes should only happen in a blue Tiffany box. And I wish that people understood that the ability to do that takes years of experience.

Kendyl :

Many people feel that the buying and selling of a house is simple. It's so simple that anyone can do it. And in fact, it's highway robbery how much commission we charge. And they won't know until they get into it, just how complex and disorienting and stressful that can be. Nor do they understand until they get into it, all of the ways that inexperience can make things not only a lot more stressful and chaotic, but cost you a lot of money.

Kendyl :

And so you don't figure it out until you're into it and it's too late. Then you close Escrow and you're like, "Phew, I'm glad that's over." And you don't do it again for decades, right?

Marty :

Because it was so miserable.

Kendyl :

Because it was so miserable, right. And so many people are ignorant of the value that experience can provide for you. When I do my job well, you actually never... I'm like the men in black, right? I'm the person who kills all the monsters and you never even knew they existed.

Marty :

also for people who are looking for a realtor, do your research. Look them up online, see what kind of reviews they're getting. And really have questions ready at the interview. What kind of questions should they have ready when interviewing a realtor, wherever they may live?

Kendyl :

The last person that you did business with, how would they describe you to their friend?

Marty :

That's a great question.

Kendyl :

Right? There are a lot of real estate agents out there, why you? What do you bring? And listen carefully because 99% of the agents are going to say the same darn thing. So we're going to say variations of, "I will sell your house for more money in less time with the least amount of hassle to you." Does that sound like a canned line? It is. Because it is taught in every real estate class for the last 35 years. I know because I've heard it.

Kendyl :

And you do want someone who has the confidence that they can sell your house for the most amount of money in the least amount of time, with the least amount of hassle to you. You want color, you want details. You want anecdotes. What do you do specifically to accomplish that? 99.9% of real estate agents cannot answer that question because they've never been asked and they've never thought about it.

Marty :

that's important to know how they're going to market your house. That's important. How to get the most eyes on it, et cetera.

Kendyl :

I mean, if somebody were to ask me that question today, I'd say, "Yeah, that's really not going to help you figure out whether or not I'm the right person." And they're going to go "Why?" And I'll be like, "Well, because yes, I can sell it for the most amount of money, with the least amount of time, with the least amount of hassle to you. But that's not why you should hire me." And they'll be like, "well, why not?" And I'll be like, "Because any good agent can do that." And they'll be all like, "well, why?" And for me, it's going to be a lot of questions of why they called me in the first place, honestly.

Marty :

I know your mother was a realtor and really inspired you to go into real estate. I'm wondering what things you learned from her that were really terrific and useful and if there was some things you spotted and said, "Ooh, maybe I should do that another way."

Kendyl :

So my mother was a force of nature. She was one of those people that believe that she knew what you should do and your opinion didn't matter. We all know people like that, my mother was a third grade teacher. Do I need to say more, really? Okay. So I learned that I don't do that. 

Kendyl :

The most foundational lesson my mother ever taught me. She says, "Kendyl, the only thing that you have to sell is your reputation. You don't sell a house. You don't sell a buyer a house. That's just not germane to the process. The only thing that's important is your reputation, because that is what people will "buy"." And as long as they "buy" my reputation, which means hire me, the house that they buy, how long they take to do it, how many they go through... None of that is important, other than how you help them get to their goal in the way they want to get there, which by the way is not always fast.

Marty :

I don't think they're buying your reputation. They're investing in it because they're trusting you and with their most valuable asset. And so in that way, they invest in your reputation.

Kendyl :

I guess if we're going to mince words and I love mincing words, I would say that they're trusting my reputation.

Marty :

Yeah. They really are. That's wonderful. Kendyl, thank you so much for taking the time out of your very hectic day-

Kendyl :

You're welcome.

Marty :

... To sit down and talk with me, I really appreciate this.

Kendyl :

I thank you very much for the opportunity and for the people who are listening out there, you would be lucky to be able to use Marty and her team for all of the organizing and moving needs. She is phenomenal, compassionate, and ultimately trustworthy.

Marty :

Oh my goodness, Kendyl. Thank you so much. By the way, that's not a requirement for being on the podcast, but thank you very much. All of us at Clear Home Solution say thank you. That's very kind. 

Marty :

And by the way, you can find all of Kendyl's contact information on our website, howtomoveyourmom.com. 

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:02)
Moving your mom or your dad, or yourself, isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life. How to move your mom, and still be on speaking terms afterward, provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults and their family members, who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions, as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:41)
Today, I get to talk to Dawn McFarland, who is the founder and president of M&M Benefit Solutions Insurance Services. She really has a passion for helping people navigate the often confusing path to how they receive their healthcare. And especially she works with people who are eligible for Medicare, because I know that's a big mystery for a lot of people.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:02)
Dawn currently serves as the vice-president of legislation for the State of California Association, on the Medicare Advisory Council for the National Association of Health Underwriters, and because she's not busy enough already, she's also a certified community educator for the Alzheimer's Association. Welcome, Dawn, and thank you so much for joining me. And I don't know how you made time to sit down with me given that crazy schedule you must have.

Dawn McFarland: (01:28)
I appreciate you so much, Marty, and I'm grateful to be able to have a conversation with you and hopefully get more information out there. You know I like to educate people.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:39)
And you are superb at it. You even organized that conference during COVID last year. That was amazing. You were so great.

Dawn McFarland: (01:47)
Thank you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:48)
You're welcome. And I was honored to be a part of it, thank you. So let's start by having you talk about your favorite memory of your grandparents.

Dawn McFarland: (01:56)
I love that question. I lost both my closest grandpa and grandma, who are my mom's parents, I think we're going on three years now, ago. And I tell my husband all the time I miss my grandpa like nothing else. He was the best male figure I had throughout my life. So I would say when I look back on all the memories... And there were a lot, they were super involved in my life... I think the best memories were they used to house sit for a couple in Evergreen, Colorado. I grew up in Colorado.

Dawn McFarland: (02:38)
They used to house sit for this couple in Evergreen, and when I was in my younger years... I don't know, I think I was pre-seven, eight-years-old, the Higgins... We called them the Higgins, that they had a house that was... It almost felt like a fairy tale, because there was a big hill behind it and there was a creek down below. It was always fun when we went to see grandma and grandpa up at the house. It was like a vacation.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:04)
It's magical.

Dawn McFarland: (03:05)
It was magical.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:07)
Yeah, especially when you're a little kid. How beautiful. That's wonderful. You have such a specific field in insurance, and it is so vital because people are completely mystified by Medicare. What do you love about what you get to do?

Dawn McFarland: (03:22)
The first thing that I like, and I feel like it's the most important thing, is that I love working with gratitude. I've worked with customer service pretty much my entire career. It's been something customer service related. But there's something special about working with the senior market, especially when you help them. They are so grateful. And when you are living day in and day out helping people and they feel grateful, then that's my favorite thing. I love working in gratitude. And the second thing is I like to problem solve. I'm a total geek.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:55)
I love that about you. Yes, it's so great.

Dawn McFarland: (03:59)
So obviously, that's a big problem-solving game. And every situation's unique, so it's never boring.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:05)
I can only imagine. And you were talking about working with gratitude. You yourself exude that. You are very generous and so helpful with all kinds of information. I know you've been very helpful to me.

Dawn McFarland: (04:19)
Ah, thank you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:20)
Yeah, so it's no wonder you get a lot of gratitude back. No wonder. And tell me about a great client story, especially one that was a little bit complicated, so people can understand the process. That would be wonderful.

Dawn McFarland: (04:34)
A client who was referred to me by another client, and this woman is someone who... This happened during last year at COVID, and she didn't feel technology savvy particularly, but she was brave enough to hear instruction and work through it. She didn't have anything outside of her original Medicare, and she's starting to have more serious heart problems. And what I was able to do was not only walk her through that... And she's nervous, right, because all of these. And it's COVID and nothing felt stable.

Dawn McFarland: (05:18)
I feel like we were able to navigate her into a plan, work through all of the issues with guaranteed issue, get her into a plan that she's satisfied with that is really ultimately helping her save a lot of money. Because if you don't have anything outside of original Medicare, you're paying 20% of the bill, so not having something in place, and then also prescriptions on top of that. So that's what comes top of mind for my favorite story right now.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:46)
I love that. What makes the whole Medicare route so complicated?

Dawn McFarland: (05:52)
Part of it's a good thing. It's choice. So it's good that there's so many choices. That's not the bad part. I think the hard part is how many deadlines that there are that definitely make a difference. If you don't enroll in Part B in the proper amount of time, you could face a penalty for the rest of your life as long as you're on Medicare. Same thing with Part D. So it's avoiding the pitfalls of the deadlines, making sure you're covered properly, not having lapse in coverage so you don't face those kinds of penalties. And again, it works a bit differently than how we... Usually up until we hit that age, we have employer health insurance or the individual insurance, and the market doesn't work quite the same.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:40)
Very interesting. Is there an explanation of why it doesn't work similarly, or it's just bureaucracy?

Dawn McFarland: (06:48)
So part of the way in which it's different is because it is partially through the government. We pay taxes to receive our Medicare, so there's a lot of regulation from the government as well. And elder fraud abuse, the potential for people to get in trouble, it's always out there. So I understand why there's so many strict rules. I think just making sure that you have someone to guide you through it, it becomes not so complicated. Someone just has to understand all those little bits, and then once you get it, it's not that complicated.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:27)
Oh, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. What pitfalls... Okay, so let's talk about the deadlines. So is it in regard to one's age? Is it a time of the year? What [crosstalk 00:07:39]?

Dawn McFarland: (07:39)
A lot of people are working past age 65 now.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:44)
I will be, and I look forward to it.

Dawn McFarland: (07:46)
Yeah, me too, actually. So turning 65 is a trigger. And if you don't have health insurance in your employer and you turn 65, you need to get Medicare because you're not going to be covered. Individual plans will no longer cover you. So turning 65 is a trigger.

Dawn McFarland: (08:08)
And you have three months before your 65th birthday, the month of your 65th birthday, and three months after your 65th birthday to be in what they call that initial enrollment period, which you're not going to pass any deadlines, create penalties, or miss opportunities for guaranteed issue. Because that's also a difference between your current medical world and the Medicare world. There's underwriting when it comes to supplements. Not the Medicare Advantage plans, but the supplements. So I would say that's probably the biggest deadline.

Dawn McFarland: (08:44)
And then if you're employed and you have employer coverage, there's some rules. So if your employer has less than 20 employees, you have to... Usually Medicare will pay first, so you need to figure that out. And you're not always advised by your employer that you need Medicare. You think you're going along fine with the health insurance plan through your employer. If something happens, that's when you find out that you should have had Medicare, because Medicare pays first. So that's a scenario.

Dawn McFarland: (09:13)
And then if you work for an employer that has more than 20 employees, your employer coverage is likely going to be credible coverage, so you don't need Medicare until you retire from that employment.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:22)
So in other words, if it's a bigger company and you're covered by your employer, it's okay if you miss that deadline around 65?

Dawn McFarland: (09:31)
Yep, you can waive Medicare until... And oftentimes I'll recommend that you do that, because why pay a Part B premium when you're getting covered by your employer?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:42)
Yeah, yeah. And everybody thinks oh, Medicare will cover everything. No, it doesn't. I especially know this hanging out with you.

Dawn McFarland: (09:49)
That's true, it does not. No long-term care, no assisted living facilities. Those are the kinds of things that you need to prepare for financially outside of Medicare, and don't count on them to be covered by your Medicare.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (10:05)
Yeah, long-term care insurance, I mean, we can't push it enough. I mean, seriously, get a policy. You will thank yourself later. You really, really will. Makes such a huge difference. Now, there are Medicare supplements that you can also get. What kinds of things do those cover?

Dawn McFarland: (10:21)
Medicare supplement covers anything that Medicare covers, and that's part of the difference and part of the routes. You have three basic routes when you have Medicare. You have original Medicare that we've talked about. It covers 80%, you're responsible for 20% plus your prescriptions. Your next option would be original Medicare plus a supplement and a prescription drug plan. And a supplement in that way, they cost more than the Medicare Advantage plans, which is the third route. They cost more upfront and premium than the Medicare Advantage plans, but they cover the full 20%. You might be responsible for a deductible. That's where all these things, you know, the [crosstalk 00:11:03].

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:02)
You need a guide like you.

Dawn McFarland: (11:04)
Yeah. But a Medigap Medicare supplement covers the rest of the 20% as long as it's a service covered by Medicare. If you move into a Medicare Advantage plan... And you don't pay a copay with a supplement when you go get services.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:17)
No.

Dawn McFarland: (11:19)
Medicare Advantage plans not so much. You do pay a copay when you go in to get your services. It operates very similar to how you experience healthcare prior to Medicare, because you do have to stay in network. You pay the copays when you go in. The difference is you have to stay in network. So if you choose a Medicare Advantage plan, you don't have the freedom to travel across the country and see any doctor that takes Medicare.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:43)
Got it. Oh, that's interesting. That's important. Again, why we need you to hold the torch and guide us through the tunnel of Medicare and those kind of benefits.

Dawn McFarland: (11:51)
I like that. I like the hold the torch analogy.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:54)
Yeah, and in a way, shepherding. I mean, that's what we do, too, in terms of clients and their treasures and things like that. But yeah, I mean, really it helps so much, and there are so many different kinds of guides out there. There's what you do, there's what I do. There are care managers who are different from caregivers, and we'll be examining that, of course, on later episodes. I also wanted to ask you... I asked you what you love about what you do. I have got to ask you, what don't you love about what you do? That's always fun to talk about. What don't you love? [crosstalk 00:12:23]?

Dawn McFarland: (12:22)
You know what I don't love? I don't love that I'm nervous. I feel like it's so important to not put somebody in a situation. So I think if there's anything I don't love, it's that part of it. And I always want to make sure the person that I'm taking care of is truly taken care of. And there's some whammies that can come out of nowhere that you couldn't necessarily foresee. So I think that's what I don't love about it, is if something changes from a current situation that we advise on, because of the deadlines and the time periods and the special enrollment periods required to do so, sometimes our hands are tied and that's hard.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:06)
Not mentioning that you're dealing with people's health, especially in later life. There's so much at stake frequently. I mean, it's amazing how much longer people are living and living in a healthy way.

Dawn McFarland: (13:17)
It's true.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (13:18)
But when something hits you or your family, you got to know what's going on and that you're covered. Can you talk about a scenario or a client where something went wrong or they missed something? Because I'm trying to really... I want to alert people to the things they really have to pay attention to. And if they don't do these things or pay attention, it could really hurt them in the long run. You already talked about the time frame, but what else can happen?

Dawn McFarland: (13:50)
That's the biggest one, time frame, because it affects so many things. It affects penalties and it affects guaranteed issue. I'll give you another scenario. I had a client who reached out to me. They turned 65 in December. They reached out to me... I think it was the first week in April, which we just missed the deadline to be able to get the Part D without having a special enrollment period. So now this individual has to wait until AEP, which is October 15th to December 7th, to enroll in a drug plan that will start covering him January 1st. And there's going to be a penalty of 1% of the national standard average, which it's 33 cents per month. It's not a huge penalty, until you miss a lot of months because it's added on for every month you didn't have it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:50)
Wow.

Dawn McFarland: (14:51)
Then it lasts for the rest of your life. So, I know.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:56)
That just does not make sense to me.

Dawn McFarland: (14:57)
I know.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:58)
It is what it is, right? Now, you mentioned an acronym in there. Waiting for the... Was it AEP? ADP?

Dawn McFarland: (15:06)
AEP. Thank you, yes. Annual enrollment period.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:09)
Oh. There you go.

Dawn McFarland: (15:12)
That's what it is, yep.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:13)
And when is that specifically? What dates are those?

Dawn McFarland: (15:15)
October 15th to December 7th every year.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:18)
Okay, that's good to know. Thank you for going through all this wonky stuff, because people don't know the ins and outs and it's good at least, because people can also listen to this again to take notes and that kind of thing to make sure they're on top of stuff.

Dawn McFarland: (15:33)
Yeah, I appreciate being able to talk about it, because a lot of times you forget what to bring up. You're asking great questions.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:39)
Oh, well, that's very kind of you. Well, you're giving great answers. And I know that about you. You're very thorough, you're a very good communicator. That's another thing that's key about somebody who's going to guide you through this, is you want somebody who can articulate it in understandable phrases, as opposed to super technical or something like that, where they assume that you know their vernacular already, you know the business, and we don't know one another's businesses. And also, if you're a consumer or a client coming, that's why they come to you, because you have the expertise.

Dawn McFarland: (16:12)
Same with you. I've already decided that I want you to come in and help us when we need it for our parents' house.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:19)
Ah, thank you. I'm honored by that. That's always fun. Yeah, thank you. What kind of questions should people be asking professionals like you when they're interviewing them and thinking about working with them?

Dawn McFarland: (16:35)
I think that one of the most important is are they appointed with multiple carriers? Someone who's only pushing one carrier... And not pushing necessarily, but if they're captive to one carrier and only educating you about that one carrier, I feel like that's just... Again, the Medicare scope is so wide and it's such a rainbow of options, I feel like only hearing about one carrier is not... Even one or two carriers... is not a really good picture of what your options are. So that's probably number one.

Dawn McFarland: (17:12)
Number two, because Medicare has so many parts, I feel like it's also... There's a lot of agents that only do Medicare supplements and they don't do Medicare Advantage plans, which also means they don't certify and are able to talk about the Medicare Advantage plans. And it just, again, doesn't give you the full picture, and I really feel like that's important if you're working with a... To be fully guided, you should be with someone who can talk to you about the whole market.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:41)
They're not limited.

Dawn McFarland: (17:42)
Right. And that's my personal opinion. There are agents out there... Not that they're bad agents, but I just feel like it's such an important thing to know all of your options.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:52)
Yeah, that's vital. Anything else they should consider? Certain licenses, things like that?

Dawn McFarland: (17:59)
To be able to sell, you have to be licensed by the State of California, so they should have a Department of Insurance license. I will always promote that they should be a member of the National Association of Health Underwriters, where I volunteer, is an organization for our industry. And what we do is advocate for our clients, for agents and our clients, when pieces of legislation... As you know, that's a huge political topic right now. When pieces of legislation come out, what we do is look at it from our perspective. Because we are the ones on the street working with clients, we know what they're experiencing, and we try to advocate for making sure these pieces of legislation are not causing unintended consequences. So I feel like agents that are involved in our association... And you can look up... There's a Find an Agent tool on NAHU, nahu.org.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:56)
And that's the National Association of Health Underwriters.

Dawn McFarland: (19:00)
That's correct. Yeah, and there's a Find an Agent tool to find agents all across the country. If you wanted to find someone who knows your area, that's a place you can go to look.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:09)
That's fantastic. That's so important. What do you wish people knew about what you do?

Dawn McFarland: (19:17)
I think what I wish is I wish they knew that that agent... I wish everyone understood that agents, at least in California, help people at no additional charge.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:29)
Which is great.

Dawn McFarland: (19:30)
Why wouldn't they use someone who understands? So that's the one thing I wish everybody knew.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:38)
Why wouldn't you hire a guide to get through a dark tunnel?

Dawn McFarland: (19:40)
Right?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:41)
Or even get around a museum. Yeah, exactly, exactly. What drew you to this?

Dawn McFarland: (19:48)
It's funny. When I first got licensed in 2012, right before Covered California opened up, there was Medicare stuff on the test, and it seemed so complicated. I was like, "I don't want any part of this. I don't want to understand it. I'm not going to try to understand it." So I had an aversion for sure when I was first licensed. But then in my experience, when I was the president for the Los Angeles chapter of the association, there was kind of a pool for Medicare agents as members, and we didn't really have any content for Medicare agents.

Dawn McFarland: (20:30)
And I was asked to help lead a Medicare summit for Los Angeles, and I didn't know anything about Medicare. I was in a group space consulting for brokers and doing other things. But I understood the need. And so the first Medicare summit that I did was live in Woodland Hills at the country club. And at that I heard so much about how much need there will be as Boomers begin to retire. The statistic last year... I don't know what it is this year, I haven't looked it up, but 10,000 people turning 65 across the country every day.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:08)
Every day starting in 2012. It'll go until 2032.

Dawn McFarland: (21:12)
Isn't that crazy?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:13)
It is 10,000 per day. Yeah. And the percentage... And I don't have them in front of me or you know I'd recite them, the percentages. But it's going to grow so much, until basically older adults will be a full quarter of the population.

Dawn McFarland: (21:32)
The more I thought about it... So that first one I think was probably five years ago now that I knew that, and I still wasn't going to jump on it. It kept coming back in my head that what an opportunity and what a way to help a population that I actually really like working with. That's another thing with my grandpa, he was an Eastern Star in the Masons and we would go visit the old folks homes. And I really enjoy spending time with senior citizens. So it kept tugging at me. Finally, I gave in. I said, "Okay, I'm going to do this." I spent a full year, because I did not feel comfortable. I would shadow people to understand how they would advise their clients because I didn't feel comfortable. Again, I don't ever want to put somebody in a situation that's going to hurt them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:22)
There's so much at stake. There really is. That's why you want somebody experienced like you. By the way, how many years have you been doing this, this specialization?

Dawn McFarland: (22:30)
Medicare specifically, this is going on my fourth AEP. If you're taking care of your parents, or a lot of people have also been laid off or all of the things that have happened, there is help available. So they've increased the subsidies for individuals going through Covered California. They've made a SEP, another SEP for the individual market.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:56)
What's SEP?

Dawn McFarland: (22:57)
Special enrollment period.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:58)
Oh, sorry. So there's AEP, which is annual enrollment period, and S... Thank you.

Dawn McFarland: (23:04)
Yep. No, thank you, because again, acronyms and being in your industry, I know. So I just want to put that out there, that no, if you are looking at health insurance options, right now is a really good time for you to check into the ability to get subsidies, because I'm seeing a huge increase in the amount of subsidies that people are getting.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:26)
That's wonderful. And what do subsidies cover specifically when it comes to Medicare and such?

Dawn McFarland: (23:32)
It's interesting that I don't think to explain that. So a subsidy is technically a tax credit. But what the government said... President Biden signed in March. He signed the American Rescue Plan Act.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:44)
Right.

Dawn McFarland: (23:45)
In that act, they increased subsidy for... Excuse me. Health insurance can only be received through Covered California because they need assistance. So a subsidy is a tax credit that is applied to your health insurance premium. And in that ARPA that the president signed, he made it so that no individual paid more than 8.5% of their income for health insurance.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:12)
Wow.

Dawn McFarland: (24:13)
Before, it used to be if you were over 400% of the federal poverty level... And there's a chart for that... You wouldn't get a subsidy, but now I'm seeing quite a few people are getting it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:24)
Oh, well, that's good. That's helpful. I mean, little revisions to our healthcare system are not a bad thing, especially for older adults and their families. You know, they've been working so hard all those years, they deserve it. Okay, one more question. I want you to imagine yourself at 90. What do you think you'd be telling yourself now if you could?

Dawn McFarland: (24:50)
Quit working so much.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:54)
Yeah. Yeah, you and me both. Right? We'll see. We'll get bored. And it is such rewarding work to work with older adults.

Dawn McFarland: (25:03)
It is. Which is why we continue and work longer hours, because it matters. But I really think that that is probably what I would... I would tell myself to prioritize a little bit differently.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:23)
Just know, your 90-year-old self is talking to you now. And my 90-year-old self-

Dawn McFarland: (25:29)
What would you tell yours?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:30)
I'm sorry, what?

Dawn McFarland: (25:31)
What would you tell yourself?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:33)
You know, I was just thinking about that, and I would probably suggest the same thing. And maybe get a haircut. I don't know.

Dawn McFarland: (25:43)
No, you have pretty hair, don't do it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:45)
Well, thank you. Thank you. It was amazing how long it got during COVID, but enough about dead protein. This has been so much fun. Thank you for hanging out with me and really going into the detail and answering all my questions, because it's just the answers aren't easily accessible out there.

Dawn McFarland: (26:00)
And putting the pieces together. Thank you. Thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:05)
Oh, you bet. And where can people reach you? We're going to include your information on our website howtomoveyourmom.com. But what's the best way? Is it email? Is it...

Dawn McFarland: (26:16)
Email is the best way, because that also, if you email me at Dawn, D-A-W-N, at M as in Mary, N as in Nancy, M as in Mary, benefitsolutions.com... That's benefit singular, solutions plural. The reason that's the best is because I'll always have my immediate responder that gives you access to my calendar, and that is the best way for us to start a conversation because it gives you time on my calendar.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:43)
Yeah, that's perfect. That's very efficient. I like that very much. So thank you, Dawn McFarland, for being with me. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:55)
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move your Mom and Still Be on Speaking Terms Afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (00:02)
Moving your mom, or your dad, or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that as are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom and still be on speaking terms afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you. Meet my colleague and dear friend, Susan Pomerantz, the founder and CEO of Concepts for Living.

Susan Pomerantz: (00:49)
My mom who use to say to me, and this was way before I fell into this profession I'm in, she used to say to me, please promise me you'll never put me in the home. The home was a nursing home because back then there were no assisted livings or retirement communities.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (01:09)
For the last 22 years, she's worked with her clients to find them their ideal later life living community. My dad likes Susan's mom, also dreaded the idea only instead of the home, he called it the warehouse. But now...

Susan Pomerantz: (01:26)
That couldn't be further from what we work with, with our clients. And we know how quality of life in an assisted living or retirement community can exponentially, make them feel better about themselves and have a much more fulfilled life. But back then, there weren't those options for my parents.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (01:45)
But now there are lots of options from independent living communities that feel like resorts to others with only five or six beds in them. And those are for people requiring professional 24 hour care. We're lucky to have Susan Pomerantz here to color in the full landscape of later life living. I'm Marty Stevens-Heebner, CEO of Clear Home Solutions, and this is How to Move Your Mom and still be on speaking terms afterward. So, Susan, what are some of your favorite memories of your grandparents?

Susan Pomerantz: (02:21)
My Nana was my best friend and she moved in with us when my grandfather passed away. We shared a room for many years. And when I was old enough to be dating, my mom always felt very secure in going to bed because she knew that Nana would wait up for me and that she did and I would come home and we would settle down, maybe have some see's candy between us. And she would grill me about my dates. What was he like? Where did you go? What did you do? Was it fun? And just on and on. And so I just, it was growing up with a senior, but a phenomenal senior right in my fingertips. I do believe unbeknownst to me back at that age at 16 or 17, that it was very much a part of who I am today. She was my buddy. She really was.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (03:12)
But Susan's Nana wasn't without her frailties. And she faced those with a courage that made a big impression on her granddaughter.

Susan Pomerantz: (03:19)
She had a heart condition and she had a heart attack at 78. Came through it and ultimately knew when she was going to have an attack because it was congestive heart failure. So she would have trouble breathing and she would come and she would say, okay, it's time to go to the hospital now. And before we could go to the hospital, she would pull up her girdle. She had to have her girdle, oh, and dusting powder. And she had long white hair. And she would say, Susan, please come and fix my hair for me. And we'd put it up in a French twist. And then she would go to the hospital.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (03:53)
I've been entertained many, a time by Susan's delightful sense of humor. And I'm sure that gentle humor is what puts her clients at ease. Removing people from the homes they've lived in for 15, 30, and even 50 years. Think of all those memories. They're literally dealing with the treasures of a lifetime and some other things. We once moved someone who was 89 years old from the home he'd been born in and lived in all his life, 89 years. It's a huge and unsettling shift. And not just for the older parents, it's tough on all generations of your family. It's really difficult. And that means if you work with older adults, you've got to be jam packed with compassion and empathy. It has to be second nature built-in especially because a lot of us have come to our current professions from others that were completely unrelated. Before Clear Home Solutions, I owned a handbag line. As for Susan...

Susan Pomerantz: (04:57)
My falling into senior care was strictly by accident. And I think by fate, I was meant to be here. But initially I was in a completely 180 career. I own children's stores, children's boutiques. You didn't know that?

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (05:15)
No.

Susan Pomerantz: (05:17)
I owned children's boutiques. I had them for 10 years and I sold it. And then I was at this crossroads of what am I going to do now? So my mother-in-law lived at the Jewish Home for the aging. And I thought, I'll go volunteer. That will make her happy.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (05:34)
A bit of background about the nonprofit Los Angeles Jewish Home. It serves thousands of older adults regardless of faith. And all religions are welcome. The organization's name stems from its very quiet beginnings over 100 years ago. A very thoughtful group of neighbors invited five homeless Jewish men into their homes at Passover. That was 1912. It's now become one of the leading senior healthcare systems in the whole country. In addition to that healthcare, the Jewish Home provides in-home care. They also have beautiful later life living communities here in Southern California. So for the Jewish Home to elevate Sue from volunteer to staff member was a big deal. And Sue had discovered her life's vocation, work that required empathy as much as skill and knowledge as much as compassion.

Susan Pomerantz: (06:30)
I fell in love with the clientele. I mean just fell in love with them. And two months into it, they came to me and they said, we'd like you to interview as director of the program. I didn't know what the heck I was doing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (06:44)
Despite what Sue says, her work ethic and warmth, wowed residents and colleagues alike. They were not the only ones she impressed as it turns out because pretty soon a company with more than 30 skilled nursing facilities hired her to develop their volunteer program. So what is a skilled nursing facility, you ask? A skilled nursing facility or SNIF because of its acronym. And just because you can just say SNIF a whole lot faster. A SNIF is not to be confused with the nursing home. At a SNIF, you get high level medical care from licensed professionals like registered nurses and physical therapists. And stays there are temporary. With a nursing home, you move in to live there. Also, while there are usually certified nurses present at a nursing home, you don't get the high level medical care you see it as SNIF. Skilled nursing facilities are for people who need IVs injections, catheter care. Yikes. Usually because they're recuperating from major surgery.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (07:51)
After Sue set up the volunteer program for all 32 SNIFs, hospice came knocking, asking Sue to cultivate their volunteer program. A lot of people get anxious and even panicky when they hear the word hospice, my dad certainly did. But during his last days on earth, when the hospice workers came and were so supportive, dad was fine with it. Especially when they told him their services and the medication they provide were free. Like my father, a lot of you probably think hospice is only for the end of life, but that's not always the case. It's also for those diagnosed with a terminal illness. And sometimes those people go into remission or even recover. They don't need hospice anymore at that point, at least for the time being. Hospice cares true purpose is to provide palliative care. That means pain management, support, and comfort. Sue took comfort very seriously.

Susan Pomerantz: (08:52)
It wasn't about just making life more cheerful. It was really about getting in deep with our patients to make them feel that one-on-one and doing some spectacular things with them. We had one person that loved the sunrises at the beach. We took her to the beach to watch the sunrises.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (09:11)
Sue took the time to make sure they found out about the inner lives of their hospice clients and what supported their serenity. By knowing that, she and her colleagues endeavored to make their lives as peaceful as possible. Especially as they approach the end. Sue started surveying the later life landscape because she was on the lookout for living options that were more serene than a skilled nursing facility and they're equivalence.

Susan Pomerantz: (09:39)
I looked around and I said, okay, so here were the choices in hospice. Someone either died at home or they went to a nursing home. And I said to myself, there had to be something between. Many times families can't take care of them at home. It's just not possible. You've got working families. In a nursing home, it loses its personality, it loses its humanity a little bit. So I said, okay, there's got to be more out there. And that's where board and cares come in.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (10:05)
Here in California board and cares have five or six rooms for residents who need 24 hour care and attention like people with late stage dementia or those in hospice. Board and cares are often redesigned family homes in residential neighborhoods and are hard to pick out from the rest of the neighborhood. We have lots of them in LA County now, but in the mid 1990s, Sue says you could fit all the senior living communities on the head of a pin. The number was that minuscule. But board and care communities have proliferated since then, along with lots of other later life living options. Why? Demographics. That's why. 10,000 baby boomers turn 65 each day, every day in the US, 10,000 per day.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (10:55)
The so-called senior citizens number over 56 million now. That's up 40% since 1995. 40 years from now, try 95 million or almost one fourth of the entire US population. That's a lot of people. Sue is one of the first to see the silver tsunami coming. She knew how vital it would be to have a variety of later life living options available. Because of health and need of assistance vary with each older adult. And let's not forget that people want to live out their later lives in many, many different ways.

Susan Pomerantz: (11:35)
I was part of the trajectory that growth, that explosion as seniors live longer and what we could do for quality of life, for value of life, and fun of life, for energy.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (11:49)
So 22 years ago, Susan Pomerantz launched her company Concepts for Living here in Los Angeles. She started working with older adults and their families to find places that offered professional caregiving and were more hospitable and neighborly than a SNIF or nursing home. Concept for Living or Concepts, as Sue often calls it, is a placement agency, finding the perfect match between person and place. And get this. Her services are free to her clients. Placement agencies in general earn commission when, and if the client decides to move into the community of their choosing. Nowadays, there are many more placement agencies. And over the years, my staff and I have managed moves alongside most of our local ones. A personal and customized approach with each client is as vital to someone doing placement as it is in my own work. And no one relates to people better than Sue, including me if I'm honest. It's her years of experience and dedication and just the natural warmth of her personality. She shaped an extraordinary practice that begins with a detailed and patient discovery process.

Susan Pomerantz: (13:10)
The initial conversation is lengthy. My goal always is to make them feel comfortable enough that they can really share with us. They can share all the pitfalls, all the angst, all the concerns, what it's like to have mom or dad living with them and they have a toddler. What it's like to go and leave mom and dad while they go off to work and then come home and find the burners on the stove on. They've been on all day. When they're comfortable enough, they feel permission to not only open up, they cry and that's okay too, because that's what we're here for. My goal usually is even if they've cried by the end of the conversation, I've made them or helped them to laugh. It's not cookie cutter. It's not generic.

Susan Pomerantz: (13:59)
So if I hear my dad was in the military, he was a Colonel. We were a military family that moved around. So he loved to travel and they want a place where maybe he can relate to the other people living there that they'd have similar backgrounds or similar experiences. And then we get of course to the physical needs, but it's more than the physical needs. It really is about that psychosocial. And sometimes it has to do with religion and ethnicity. Very often it has to do with cognition. It is so individualized. And I think that my hospice background has given me that ability to listen and advise. And I also have a former physician assistant slash registered nurse on my team. When they talked to us about a diagnosis or a condition, we've heard it. We know it. We're the only placement service in all of LA that has healthcare background.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (15:01)
Those are the things you need to look and listen for when you're interviewing placement agencies. First, ask about their own professional history working with older clients. If it's not very substantial, they may not have sufficient experience and empathy to imagine the ideal living situation for each individual client's needs and enjoyment. Second, make sure they understand the specific kinds of support you or your loved one will need. That means you need to do a little homework and make sure you come prepared with specifics because they will ask you a whole lot of questions or at least they should. Finally, if they're hurrying you during your first interview or two, they're not taking the time to uncover the less than obvious details that help identify the best living situation, the right fit.

Susan Pomerantz: (15:54)
So we have that initial phone call and we feel like we get to know each other. And listen in that phone call, it's a whole interview because I need to know finances. I don't want them walking into a place that they go, oh my God, this is fabulous. This is amazing. This is like walking into a five star hotel only to find out they can't afford it. That's not fair. It's not fair to them. It's not fair to the community either because I've then wasted their time. So that's a very important part of it. It's also big places versus small places.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (16:25)
So who's a good fit for a board and care versus an assisted living community?

Susan Pomerantz: (16:31)
Of course their diagnoses, if there are any is essential, because we're going to look at the places that excel in taking care of that kind of situation. Do you have someone in good health going into a board and care? It's going to be your fall risks, because that's really important. If they're habitual fallers, you want somebody who's going to hear them and know that they've gone down really quickly. Cognition is a big part of it. What's more important, the better ratio of caregivers and that immediate presence, if someone falls or is the social life, and the outings, and the discussion groups, and the arts more important? It's a give and take on both sides. So it really becomes a question of what are the primary needs versus secondary needs?

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (17:17)
Because of the increasing number of communities available, there are often dozens that could be considered, but Sue takes the time to narrow down the choices to make it easier on her clients. They're often overwhelmed by the sudden turns later life can take.

Susan Pomerantz: (17:35)
One thing that Concepts for Living does that we're very good at is designing a list of places that definitely meets their needs, but keeping it manageable. I do not believe in sending anyone, the daughter, the son, the grandchild who might be running this whole thing, God bless them or the niece who's doing it because she loves her aunt so much and their aunt didn't have kids so she steps up. I don't want them having to run all over the place and see places that are not appropriate. And I don't want them to be overwhelmed because it is overwhelming. We try to keep our initial list to six maybe. And we always say, you know what? If these don't work out, there's a whole lot more out there, but these are the ones that jump out at us that we think are the best options for your particular situation.

Susan Pomerantz: (18:24)
Be it because their rates are the best or location, location is so important. I always say to them, don't make it a field trip, because if it's so far that you have to make it a field trip, you're not going to go. You may go in the beginning, but then you're not going to keep going. And then you're going to feel bad that you're not going. Let's make this convenient for you too. So all those things that have to be taken into consideration, but we do try to keep it manageable if we have to go further and make it bigger, we will.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (18:53)
Do you go with them when they visit the communities?

Susan Pomerantz: (18:55)
If they want us to go with them to see the place, we will do that. If it makes them feel comfortable to have that parent meet with me, it's my pleasure to do so.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (19:06)
So families don't actually have to meet with you directly. You don't always have to do an in-person assessment.

Susan Pomerantz: (19:12)
The client is assessed by the places. When the family or the client narrows it down to what their, maybe two choices are, even one choice. That place sends out someone to see if they are really appropriate for their community. Their assessment is more important than my assessment. We send out with our listing to everyone this handy dandy little tool called our tip sheet. The tip sheet is fantastic. It's just like having us in your pocket. And it's all the questions to ask while you're touring and all of the things to look for. Obviously, you're going to look for cleanliness, but let me assure you the Concepts doesn't send you anywhere that isn't clean. So cleanliness, smell. Take into consideration, in fairness, things can happen in a moment in that environment. What they don't realize is that maybe when they walked in, it was a change of shift or it was going to become activities in the activity room.

Susan Pomerantz: (20:05)
And they've taken them out of their rooms and they're waiting to be wheeled into the dining room or whatever room was allocated for activities. 10 minutes later, everything could change. So that's very important to look at. The interaction between staff and residents, especially in a small places and between residents and residents. Going into the dining room, look and see how social it is. Is there a lot of chatter going on? Does it sound like they're having fun? Are they engaged? And then when you narrow it down, always go have lunch. They're happy to have you. You want to test the kitchen, because food is important. It's one of our last great pleasures. Sometimes you'll sit down at a table in a dining room and you'll be ignored, other than by staff serving you. Other places you'll sit down and people will stop at your table as they're walking by and say, welcome to such and such a community. We love it here. We hope you'll come and live with us. Those are the things you need to look for.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (21:08)
You want to get a sense of what life is like there. Many communities offer respite stays where you can get things a test drive of sorts.

Susan Pomerantz: (21:18)
The larger ones, yes. The smaller ones, no. Because the small ones only have six people. The board and care homes, it's really hard for them to do a respite stay. They just don't have the capacity. Usually respite is a month. Some of them will do it for less, never less than two weeks. My focus is on getting them to where they're going to be happy. The feeling is it takes a month usually to get adjusted, to get the whole vibe going, to start to fit in, and also to find your circle of friends. They have model rooms set up. So you don't have to move anything with you, except your clothes and medications. Maybe you want to take a few pictures because a month is still a month, but you don't have to do any heavy lifting.

Susan Pomerantz: (22:00)
And when you do move in permanently, then you start bringing your furniture and things like that. And you go in and you're so compassionate and caring and patient and that you will help set up that room at the end. And then when they get to that community, they feel like they've definitely taken a piece of their home with them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (22:18)
So now is the time they relax, get comfortable and embrace their new life or do they?

Susan Pomerantz: (22:26)
After they move in, after they're settled in and everybody's doing well, sometimes things happen. It might be little things that can be dealt with so easily. It might be bigger things and the family is afraid to say something because it might be taken out on their senior. Or in small homes sometimes it's a weight increase and they're afraid to complain to the owner. We let them know through the whole process that we don't fade away when they move in. If they have an issue, they can come back to us and we will mediate for them. We will talk to whoever it is we need to talk to and say, hey, we referred you. We trusted you. This is what we expect in return. So it's not just like great, you've moved in, it's been nice knowing you. It's not like that. You stay a part of the family.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (23:19)
I have so much respect for Sue's thoroughness and attention to detail. She's always thinking ahead. And she sees a missing link in the chain of later life offerings.

Susan Pomerantz: (23:29)
I tell you what we're lacking in the industry, which I tell my board and care owners all the time, we're lacking homes that don't cater to dementia. I want homes that will take a frail client who is cognitively fine because they need other people to mix with it that are on their same level. And we get several of those people. And I don't want to put them into a small home where they're not going to have conversation and it's not enough for the owner to say to me, oh, but our caregivers will talk to them. They need peer group. And they need to be able to talk about the old days.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (24:05)
That connection with contemporaries, peer group as Sue calls it, can be so refreshing and reassuring because residents get to talk with people who remember the 60s as an adult. They remember when the Berlin wall was built, the power of Martin Luther King's words, and even the first walk on the moon, which was really amazing. I just have to say. I was wondering what Sue attributes her success and professional longevity to.

Susan Pomerantz: (24:31)
Marty, that's so hard to answer. You know me, I only have people working with me, who I feel have that same connection to people starting with Julie, who's my Jewel of an assistant. And then my team that's out there. They have to have that connection, that ability to connect and they do. And that's part of my responsibility is hiring those people. Maybe you become more seasoned with time and exposure and experience like in any other profession.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (24:59)
No one knows as a kid, what course their life will fly along. Sue had her Nana as a child, the grandma she gossiped and giggled with late into the night. What a gift. The understanding that stemmed from that bond has been to all the clients she's found a new home for, and also to their adult children who has been relieved of the burden of having to research all those communities.

Susan Pomerantz: (25:23)
It's been a ride. It really has. I would never in a million years have guessed this was going to be my career. It's the only one I've stuck with.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (25:33)
Sue connects because she's such a great listener and there's a story behind that.

Susan Pomerantz: (25:38)
I raised three kids and that means three adolescents. My last one was challenging. They all were in their own way, but she was much younger. So the other two were gone, off to college by the time I was raising her. She was fabulous, but very dramatic. And we bumped heads. I went by her room one day and I heard her crying. Knocked on her door and I walked in and I said, what can I do? Let me try to fix this for you. And she said to me, mommy, you can't always fix things. I know you want to, I know you're a fixer by nature, but you can't. And she said, but the one thing you can do is just listen. I have never forgotten it. I still get goosebumps when I say it. It was the single wisest thing that has ever been said to me and the single most important thing that I learned.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (26:43)
And you carry that into your work.

Susan Pomerantz: (26:45)
Absolutely. Every single day. It's not something you learn from books or from higher education. It's just now I listen.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (26:54)
And it's not just about hearing the words. It's really about absorbing them and taking some time to reflect on it.

Susan Pomerantz: (27:02)
And maybe not even answering. But I will tell you that on my outgoing message on one of the phone lines for Concepts, I didn't even think about it when I first said it. I say, you talk and we'll listen. And together we will make the perfect match. I've had so many people mentioned it to me over the years, that now I know it by heart, but at the time it just kind of came out and that says it all.

Marty Stevens-Heebner : (27:26)
Thank you so much for listening to, How to Move Your Mom and still be on speaking terms afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host Marty Stevens-Heebner.