007: Providing High-Quality Legal Services with A Compassionate Approach – Jamie Gonzalez

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:02)
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that. As are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:42)
Welcome back to How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward. For this episode, my guest is the esteemed attorney, Jamie Gonzalez. Jamie, welcome.

Jamie Gonzalez: (00:53)
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:55)
Thank you so much. Let me tell you a bit about Jamie because she's extraordinary. When it comes to litigating a case involving probate, trusts, estate planning, guardianships, or here in California because we're different, we call them conservatorships. Attorney Jamie Gonzalez of Oldman, Cooley Sallus, Birnberg, Coleman & Gold LLP. She's just extraordinary. Did I get all the names right?

Jamie Gonzalez: (01:21)
Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:21)
Okay.

Jamie Gonzalez: (01:21)
It's a lot of names.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:23)
I love it. With over 20 years of experience practicing law, Jamie's been repeatedly recognized as tops in her field by Los Angeles Magazine, The Legal Network. And she's also been named one of Southern California's super lawyers for six straight years. This year, there was an additional accolade, and that she was named as one of the top 50 women attorneys in Southern California.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:48)
Given how many attorneys we have in Southern California, that truly sets her apart. Jamie has plenty of her own clients, but the thing is, not all other attorneys want to actually go into court and argue before a judge and a jury. So many don't feel like they have that particular talent. And so when that happens, Jamie gets the call. Her specialty is litigation. Doing the challenging work of navigating all the courtroom dynamics involved with the trial. That's amazing, Jamie. One of the things I usually start out asking people and professionals like you is, what's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

Jamie Gonzalez: (02:26)
Oh, my grandparents. Well, I grew up with all four of my grandparents around. I was very lucky. I remember my dad's parents lived in Leisure Village and Camarillo, and my grandpa used to take me riding through Leisure Village on his moped. And then we'd always get a stick of gum afterwards. My mom's dad would always knock on the door when he was coming over, and he'd say, "I have your Shetland pony." He always promised to buy me a Shetland pony. He never did. But it was always a little thing. I remember my grandma going wedding dress shopping with me, which was really memory.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (02:59)
Yeah.

Jamie Gonzalez: (03:00)
Just so many memories. We were very close and actually, Marty, I haven't even told you this. I actually live in the house that my grandparents built and my mom and uncle grew up in. We bought it after they passed away. And now I'm raising my kids here, actually.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:16)
How lovely, what a great legacy. What's a favorite thing for you about your work? What do you love the most?

Jamie Gonzalez: (03:23)
My favorite thing, I really like interacting with the clients obviously. But I think actually my favorite, favorite thing is being in court. I know it sounds super dorky, but probate court is kind of my happy place. I'm very comfortable there. I know all the judges. All the judges know me. I feel like I do a really good job when I'm in court. And then it just helps give the clients confidence that I can advocate on their behalves. But I also try really hard to keep them out of court if I can because it's always to the client's best interest to settle a case or deal with it informally without getting in court.

Jamie Gonzalez: (04:01)
Once you get to court, the fees are extraordinary, and you never know which way it's going to go when a judge is in charge. When you're able to settle or work through a case with just the parties, you have a lot more control over the outcome. And so that's always my guidance to the clients. If it's at all possible to try to get there. If not, like I said, I am very comfortable in probate court. I have no problem with it. But I do try to guide them towards working it out if it's possible. A lot of times, it's not mostly because emotion is involved, but that's sort of how I work.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (04:34)
Yeah. It's so important. I'm sure there are many people out there who hear these terms, probate, trusts, wills, that sort of thing. And they don't know the difference between each can you kind of give us a brief explanation?

Jamie Gonzalez: (04:47)
Sure. Well, first of all, probate is guided by state law. So every state is different. In California, if you have a will, that's great. It sets out your wishes. But in order to avoid going through the court process, you actually have to have a trust. The will is irrelevant. If you have a will but no trust, you still have to go through the process. Of course, if you have neither, you also have to go through the court probate process. But if you have a trust in California, you can set out your wishes. Who gets what from your estate upon your death. And any conditions and things of that nature go in the trust. You can also put those things in your will. I also, if you have minor children, like to include guardians for your kids if something, God forbid, should happen before they turn 18. But the trust is really critical for avoiding the probate process.

Jamie Gonzalez: (05:36)
So that's the difference between those two. In California, we also have conservatorships, which I'm sure a lot of people have heard about because of Britney Spears these days. It's all over the news. But a conservatorship can really be a very non-confrontational non-adversarial process on one end of the spectrum. Of course, it can be incredibly adversarial on the other end of the spectrum. But this can be, at least in probate court, there's also mental health conservatorships. That's not what I do. I do probate conservatorships. So often, it's for elderly people who are suffering from some kind of cognitive decline, whether it be dementia or Alzheimer's and somebody needs to take care of them, make medical decisions, pay their bills, those types of things. Or even somebody that's 18 or 20, who has some type of developmental disability like autism or something like that. In that case, it will be called a limited conservatorship. But both of those on both ends of the spectrum, the developmental delays and the older people who have cognitive decline, those are all probate conservatorships.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:43)
Those are great explanations. What sort of issues in a will, trust, or what have you, tends to kind of trip the legal switch?

Jamie Gonzalez: (06:54)
You mean for litigation purposes?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:56)
Yeah. Or just lawsuits in general.

Jamie Gonzalez: (07:00)
So it can be a poorly drafted document that doesn't clearly lay out who's in charge or what the wishes are, or when something is supposed to be distributed. It can really be something having nothing to do with the documents and just somebody being upset. We live in a very litigious society. People can sue for anything. And when you sue, it's unfortunately part of the public record because the documents are filed with the court, and anybody can access it. The thing is, though, they have to prove it in order to be successful. But there's still allegations out there sometimes of wrongdoing that didn't actually happen. So an example would be a longstanding dispute between siblings and the trust list one person, one sibling, as a successor trustee, but not both. And the one who wasn't named as successor trustee is upset. So then they file a lawsuit about whatever.

Jamie Gonzalez: (08:01)
It could be that they think that the sibling that was named as the successor trustee unduly influenced the parent to name them and cut out the other person as a equal co-trustee. It could be that the distribution provisions, meaning who gets what from the estate, are not set out equally, and the person who gets less is upset by that. And they say that maybe one of the parents didn't have the cognitive understanding in order to execute these documents. Or there's always allegations of forgery, things of that nature. We review a lot of medical records when these issues come up to see if we can figure out, "Okay, did this person have dementia? Did the doctor think that they... even if they had mild dementia, for instance, could they still understand what they were doing and what they were signing?" Those types of things. So really, anything can lead to a lawsuit just because of the nature of our society. But again, they have to prove it with evidence in order to be successful.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (09:05)
Yeah. And capacity as we call it. Having the knowledge, being present, being able to understand what one is signing. It's a tricky thing because a lot of doctors are nervous for whatever reason about saying that someone has dementia, giving them that diagnosis because they know how upsetting it is. But at the same time, if someone really is having early-stage dementia, mid-stage, late-stage dementia, it has to go on the record because anything that become... if they have mid or late-stage dementia, they're not competent usually to sign a document.

Jamie Gonzalez: (09:46)
Doctors aren't really thinking about the signing of estate planning documents. So I just settled a case actually where a nephew had come in and was supposedly all of a sudden taking care of his uncle. And the uncle had a estate plan that had been around for 25 years. The guy died. The decedent died on May 31st, I believe. And on May 9th, after having an estate plan that hadn't been touched for 25 years, on May 9th and nephew went to the doctor and said, "My uncle wants to make changes to his estate plan. Can you just write us a quick letter saying that he has... he knows what he's doing?" So the doctor wrote a one-page letter that said, "Yeah, this guy knows what he's doing. He can sign anything." Little did the doctor know that there was going to be a huge dispute between nephew and the children of decedent and nephew had the entire estate plan changed, cutting out the kids and leaving basically everything to him.

Jamie Gonzalez: (10:42)
And so now they have a doctor's note saying, "Oh yeah, on May 8th, he knew what he was doing," even though the records are clear that he didn't. And if he had known that he was cutting out his children and leaving everything to long-lost nephew who just showed up in the picture, he wouldn't have signed that. And so that's a very typical fact pattern on the cases that I deal with.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:07)
It is.

Jamie Gonzalez: (11:07)
And it would be nice if the doctors actually asked a few questions before just writing a letter that said, "Oh yeah, he has capacity." The doctor probably just thought he was doing a favor. And it wasn't a big deal. He didn't know the backstory or anything like that. But it ended up causing big trouble in our case because they have this letter. Luckily we had an earlier letter from two months before that the doctor had written that said he didn't have capacity. And it was a lot more detailed. I don't know why she wrote that letter, the first letter, but we had that to counteract the second letter, which was much closer to his death and was only one line. And clearly wasn't... she hadn't thought about or known what the issues were. She just thought she was doing a favor for nephew.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:51)
And she hadn't even seen him, the patient, at any time recently, I'm assuming.

Jamie Gonzalez: (11:57)
No, in that case, she had seen the patient, but I think she thought... I don't know. I never spoke with her. We settled before we got into that deposition. But I think she just thought, "Oh, I see nephew at the hospital with uncle, the decedent or who became the decedent. I mean, he just wants a little letter saying that he can sign some documents. I'll just write it. It's not that big of a deal."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:22)
And it is a big deal.

Jamie Gonzalez: (12:23)
It is a big deal.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:23)
Because then you have a case that can, when it goes to court, costs tens of thousands of dollars from the estate.

Jamie Gonzalez: (12:31)
Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:32)
Hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I remember hearing a story from someone that there was one case where they just kept suing and suing over a book, a cookbook. This [inaudible 00:12:46] very small things. And basically, it was because this one beneficiary was so angry at another beneficiary. I'm assuming they were siblings, as I recall. They said, "I don't care if we spend every cent. I'm going to keep suing him." And that's [crosstalk 00:13:05]-

Jamie Gonzalez: (13:05)
It's funny because when I first started my career, I did business litigation. And business litigation is often an arm's length transaction or arm's length litigation. And although the issues can be incredibly complicated, it can often come down to just a cost-benefit analysis. Does it make sense to continue spending tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to recover X number of dollars? And it's very simple analysis. When you get to probate litigation and trust litigation, there's so much emotion involved that it clouds that cost-benefit analysis. It would be beneficial to them to do that kind of an analysis, but oftentimes they cannot see their way to that analysis because they have 60 years of history, "And mom loved you more than me. And you accused me when we were seven of stealing your Barbie doll, and I never got over it." Those types of things. And it sounds silly to say, but it's true. I mean, it's unbelievable what people can hold onto.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:04)
Yeah. And it is remarkable and spiteful. And then you add in the grief, which clearly those kinds of people aren't very good at processing their emotions.

Jamie Gonzalez: (14:14)
Right.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:14)
And so you dump the grief in there and it just, I think, exacerbates whatever they've been feeling. Do you feel that way as well?

Jamie Gonzalez: (14:23)
Absolutely. I mean, sometimes these cases go on for years after the person's died. So sometimes, the grief has lessened or morphed into some other kind of emotional situation with them. But yes, it can cloud a lot of things, and it's just all these different emotions really make it tough sometimes to negotiate a deal, which would keep people out of court. And like you said, sometimes they don't care. They're like, "Look, I don't care how we spend on this. I want that cookbook" or whatever it is. "Mom always promised it to me. I'm going to get it no matter what."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:58)
Yeah. It's interesting. Jamie, what do you wish people knew about what you do that they usually don't know?

Jamie Gonzalez: (15:10)
Often people come to me in times of crisis, and they're spinning out of control because they have this history that we've discussed, and something has broken the camel's back, as it were.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:24)
Yeah.

Jamie Gonzalez: (15:25)
And so they are really focused on this specific thing that just happened, and they can't see the bigger picture. Or they're not focused at all, and they keep bringing in all these irrelevant issues, and I have to keep bringing them back to, "Okay, let's focus on what we need in order to get this conservatorship or in order to defeat this trust amendment," or whatever it is. Your question was, what should they know? They should know that it's really important to focus, even though it's hard to do that. They should know that there are alternatives to getting what you want without having to run to court.

Jamie Gonzalez: (16:06)
And they should also know that they want to match up with a lawyer that they can connect with. You don't want the biggest shark in the pond if you cannot have a conversation and you do not feel like you are being heard. Oftentimes, the clients just want to be heard, whether it's by their own lawyer, by the other side, by a mediator, or by a judge. And if there is a lawyer that they hire because they're a shark or... But they can't. They don't have the emotional intelligence to really sit back and listen, then that can sometimes be a recipe for disaster and will not make you be successful in what your goals are.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:46)
Yeah. Because sometimes those people just want to go to court and rack up the legal fees.

Jamie Gonzalez: (16:50)
Yes. A lot of litigators. And thankfully, in probate, we don't see that too much.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:54)
Okay.

Jamie Gonzalez: (16:54)
It's more in other areas of law. Probate litigation, the bar for probate litigators is very small. So we run up against the same lawyers again and again in our cases, which is a nice thing because then people don't tend to burn bridges. I mean, attorneys don't tend to burn bridges. Attorneys tend to be a little bit more willing to work with you. We don't get into as many discovery battles as they do in civil litigation.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:20)
Or on Law and Order and those kinds of shows.

Jamie Gonzalez: (17:21)
Right. Exactly. Exactly. So you want to make sure that not only can the client see the forest through the trees, but that the attorney can too, and isn't just billing. We bill in six minute increments, but those six-minutes can rack up really quickly if your eye isn't on the prize and you're not keeping in mind, "Okay, what is the goal here? Let's not have a scorched earth tactic or strategy. Let's just really focus on where we want to be."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (17:53)
Yeah. That's so important. What people don't realize. And what I learned once I started going to meetings and networking with a lot of attorneys is that really a lot of attorneys do get along and really are just looking for a good remedy for what their client wants.

Jamie Gonzalez: (18:12)
Correct.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:13)
And so it really helps if both attorneys do know one another and are familiar with one another and really are respectful of their clients rather than their own fees.

Jamie Gonzalez: (18:24)
It's so funny. I have a case. It's a will contest. So there was no trust. And if I represent the stepchildren of the decedent and then the biological daughter of the decedent is on the other side, and she didn't have an attorney, and it was very difficult to get anything done. I mean, clients are allowed to represent themselves. But I just got an email from an attorney that she hired. And I was like, this is fabulous. We have a great attorney on the other side, who is smart, but is reasonable and rational, and you can have a conversation. So I emailed my clients. I was like, "This is good news. We will be able to move this case ahead quicker because we have this lawyer on the other side who I've worked with many times before and who is a reasonable, rational, human being."

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:09)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's makes such a difference. I can only imagine. What do you feel is distinctive about what you do with your clients, your own approach?

Jamie Gonzalez: (19:21)
Well, I talked a little bit earlier about the emotional component to all of this, and I think it's really important for the attorney to really have a good emotional IQ. I know my last name is Gonzalez, but I'm a Jewish mother from the Valley, and I have three children. And I really try to bring that maternal side to my clients because I want them to feel like they are heard-

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:47)
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jamie Gonzalez: (19:48)
... and understood. And then I can be the meanie in the courtroom and fight for them and advocate for them. But I really try to just bring the emotional side to it because a lot of times, that's what the client needs.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:04)
Yeah. And I'm wondering where does that motherly instinct that you have, that compassion that you have and the ability to be reasonable, even in a very emotional situation. Where does that come from?

Jamie Gonzalez: (20:18)
I am an emotional person, a very emotional person. Tell me anything about my children. I'll be crying at the drop of a dime. I love those kids. That is my number one job is raising those kids, and they are amazing. And I try to bring that... because we're dealing with families in our area of law. It's very easy to bring that into what I do. I see it. I understand it. And obviously, I'm a daughter. I'm a mother. I'm a sister. I'm an aunt, so I try to really bring that in. And part of it is I can't avoid it because I am an emotional person. I mean, which also helps in the advocating of things because I get very passionate when I'm advocating for my clients.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:03)
Yeah. Well, and we've shared a client and thanks to you for bringing me in because often you need a team of people to really get to the-

Jamie Gonzalez: (21:11)
Absolutely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:12)
... to resolve the issues and oh, boy, did they love you? They do love you. They say, "Oh, it was great to see Jamie in negotiations," because you maintain your calm, and you did. But when something, shall we say, obnoxious might come up from the other side, you just very gently shut that down.

Jamie Gonzalez: (21:33)
I shut it down. You got to shut it down. And that was a case. We mediated that case. We were there till 3:30 in the morning, and at about 9:00 PM, the judge was like, "You know what, maybe we should just shut this down and see if we can start another day." And I was like, "Your Honor, I don't think that's a good idea. We are making progress. If we walk away from this, this is going to backslide." And so I pushed to keep it going. And ultimately, we were able to settle. Like I said, it was 3:30 in the morning, and one of the clients was on the east coast. So it was 6:30 for her, but we did settle the case.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:10)
But boy, are you dogged.

Jamie Gonzalez: (22:12)
Well, I mean, it's what was best for the clients we had to keep going. I mean, sure. I would have loved to have been in my pajamas in bed at 10 o'clock at night.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:20)
Yes.

Jamie Gonzalez: (22:20)
But I knew that we could get there if we kept pushing. And I did not want to walk away because that would have been a disaster.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (22:27)
And that just attest to your dedication to your clients and to the law. Jamie, I know each situation is different, but just how do you go about easing a client from that very emotional state back toward reality so they can make smarter decisions?

Jamie Gonzalez: (22:47)
It can really be tough, and sometimes it can not be done. But you just try to keep the eye on the prize. And sometimes, you do have to bring harp on that cost-benefit analysis. Do you really want to file that motion to recover $10,000 when it might cost you $7,000 to file the motion? I'm dealing with a client right now on that issue. And her response is, "Absolutely. I do. I feel like I need to see this through to the end. And she is not living up to her side of the bargain," her sister. "And I want to do it." And so, in that instance, I actually agree with her.

Jamie Gonzalez: (23:24)
I think the... we had a settlement, and she's not complying with the settlement agreement. And even though we're not talking about tens of thousands of dollars, it's an important thing. And the other side is just getting away with murder. So [inaudible 00:23:38] sometimes it's difficult, but trying to bring them back, oftentimes, in my conversations with clients, I will have to say, "Okay, I hear what you're saying. Let's focus on X, not Y, right now. I want to hear about Y, but right now we're talking about X." And I have to just calmly kind of continue to bring them back to where we need to focus, and it's tough.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:02)
It's really difficult when those ancient issues from when they were six years old arise.

Jamie Gonzalez: (24:10)
If you're dealing with a 50 something-year-old or a 60 something-year-old who've been harboring something since they were six years old. It's not going anywhere. You're not going to get them to just forget about it. You got to deal with it. You got to confront it. You got to let them talk about it, and then you got to refocus them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:26)
It is so important. I think that's also very unique with you as well. I don't think all attorneys are as good a listener as you are, and to have that, what you call emotional intelligence. Realizing-

Jamie Gonzalez: (24:38)
It's hard sometimes. It's really hard because you're like, "I got a million things to do. I just want to focus on this." But you just got to remember that this is what the client needs. And that's my job, is to do what they need and help them through this process.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:50)
Yeah. And also, they're dealing with the grief compounding everything, so that doesn't help. So what kind of questions should people ask attorneys that they're interviewing to represent them in your field specifically?

Jamie Gonzalez: (25:08)
They should ask if they're familiar with the specific type of case that they're contemplating. They should ask... they should really listen. It's not even the substance so much. It's the connection. I think it's so important for there to be the connection between the attorney and the client. You can get through, even if the attorney has no experience in this area of law. If there's a connection and they're dedicated to your case, they really can be successful. Obviously, you'd prefer to have somebody with experience that's dealt with these issues before. It's always nice if there's a connection with the attorneys on the other side, or they've appeared in front of the judge that your case is in front of. But I don't think those things are critical. The connection is super important and just general familiarity with the area in which they want... they have an issue.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:58)
Yeah. But like you said, that connection, especially knowing that they will listen to you.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:03)
Exactly.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:04)
And that they know how to explain things well without a lot of jargon, I think. Or if there is jargon, they know how to explain it.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:10)
Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:10)
In lay terms.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:11)
There's a lot of jargon. Yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:12)
Wonderful. Well, Jamie, thank you so much. This has been extraordinary. It's no wonder you're one of the top attorneys in Southern California. You're so articulate and clear, and I love how well you listen. That's fantastic.

Jamie Gonzalez: (26:31)
Thank you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:31)
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host Marty Stevens-Heebner.