018: Demystifying Reverse Mortgages – Janice Cohen

Marty Stevens-Heebner (00:02):

We've all heard about reverse mortgages, but they're really a kind of a mystery. I don't know about you, but they certainly are for me. So keep listening because I have an expert who has all the answers. Welcome, Janice Cohen. I'm so honored to have you on as a guest.

Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that. As are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom (and still be on speaking terms afterward) provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor.

I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

Janice Cohen (00:59):

Thank you, Marty. It's great to be here with you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (01:03):

You are such an expert at this. Let me tell you a little something about Janice. Janice Cohen works with Mutual of Omaha as a reverse mortgage specialist, with 17 years experience. Talk about a veteran in her field and her approach to reverse mortgages is really unique, because she doesn't just think about it as a transaction. She really approaches it from a life planning perspective. What's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

Janice Cohen (01:31):

Oh, I had a wonderful, brilliant grandfather. We lived in New York city and he lived in our neighborhood, and he would come over every Sunday, and take me to the playground. He just had boundless patience and he had boundless energy for us as children. Those walks to and from the playground are forever in my soul. He always had a passion to make the world a better place or to help people feel embraced or to help them feel included.

Janice Cohen (02:04):

Every kind of person I'm Jewish. We used to have a Passover Seder every year at my grandparents' house. And he invited every type of person. He wanted to share our traditions. He wanted to share the amazing foods that we would eat on Passover, and he wanted to open his home. He was just a magnificent human being.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (02:27):

What a wonderful person to have had in your life. And that kindness and playfulness, you inherited that because that's the kind of person you are in a beautiful way.

Janice Cohen (02:37):

I hope so.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (02:38):

So you often become part of a team?

Janice Cohen (02:41):

Most of my business comes to me from trusted advisors who have very long-term relationships with the people who end up being my clients. I feel even more of a responsibility to evaluate if this is truly the right program for the right candidate. There have been clients who've been referred to me, who I have felt were not a good fit for a reverse mortgage. And I've told them that, and I've told their financial planner or their estate planning attorney that I felt that way and why.

Janice Cohen (03:16):

Just to give you an idea, there was a real estate attorney who called me one day and said, "I have a neighbor and she's been receiving phone calls from a reverse mortgage advisor. She already has a reverse mortgage and I would really appreciate it if you would just look at her most recent statement." And I looked at this statement and I noticed that this reverse mortgage was from quite a while ago and this lady's line of credit had grown to over $1 million.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (03:48):

How?

Janice Cohen (03:49):

She had done it. I think in the 90s and a reverse mortgage line of credit grows at the same rate that borrowed money is charged interest. And this lady was now in her 90s, and her rate was very low. We had a conference call, the real estate attorney, her neighbor, and I said, "Anne, what you have, you should never change." And she said, "That is so odd.

Janice Cohen (04:14):

This gentleman, this reverse mortgage specialist, has been calling and coming to my home. He brought over a dinner for me." I asked her for his contact information and with her on the phone, I placed a call and I said, "Hi, I'm Janice Cohen. I'm calling with Anne on the other line. She shared with me that you are talking with her about doing a refinance of her reverse mortgage."

Marty Stevens-Heebner (04:40):

And I can imagine the look on that guy's face on the other end of the line.

Janice Cohen (04:45):

I didn't even tell him that I'm a reverse mortgage specialist. I said, "I'm just curious. What is the benefit that she will get from doing a refinance of her reverse mortgage?" And he said, "Well, she'll get a much larger line of credit." And I said, "She's in her 90s, she has a million dollar line of credit. The rate will be higher?" And then he fumbled fumble. And, "Thank you for calling. Take care. I won't bother you anymore." Once I got behind Anne and said, "Hey, what are you doing?" Then he left her alone. I think it was not in the best interest of Anne.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:21):

It was in his interest, that's for sure.

Janice Cohen (05:22):

It was in his best interest. And I don't think about what's best for me. It's the way I earn my living. But still I think about what's best for my client. I would never try to complete a reverse mortgage for someone, for whom it was not appropriate.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:40):

You wouldn't push it.

Janice Cohen (05:41):

No.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:42):

And that's why there's an awarding after you.

Janice Cohen (05:45):

Yes, there is.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:46):

A Janice Cohen award, you were the first recipient, and it's unique in that you have to be both tops in bringing in clients.

Janice Cohen (05:53):

Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:54):

And customer service.

Janice Cohen (05:55):

Yes, I'm a top producer at my company. Yes. I have top customer service scores and I take a lot of pride in both of those things. But I came on board to my company as the very first loan officer. And my CEO always said to me, "Janice, it all started with you. This was a leap of faith on your part." And I help to inspire other top producing loan officers to come over to our new company, which they did in droves.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (06:26):

And you're good at making things happen when it's the right fit for your client. Let's discuss the basics. What is a reverse mortgage?

Janice Cohen (06:34):

A reverse mortgage is a tool that allows a senior to borrow approximately 50% of the appraised value of their home in tax free money. So there are no taxes charged on loan proceeds, and there are no payments that are ever expected or required. Once you borrow reverse mortgage funds, you can be receiving money, you can have a line of credit to draw from in the future, but there are no repayments that would need to be made.

Janice Cohen (07:05):

I'm under the age of 62, I have a regular mortgage, I have to make payments. Anyone who's not old enough to do a reverse mortgage has to make payments on a mortgage. That's how it works. But on a reverse mortgage, there are no payments expected or required. And yet, if you want to make payments, you can do that. Otherwise, your loan balance is going to grow over time. Imagine if you had a mortgage and each month you have the option, "Should I make a payment or should I not make a payment?"

Marty Stevens-Heebner (07:34):

Do you have to keep up insurance or maintenance?

Janice Cohen (07:37):

You must have homeowner's insurance, and you must pay your taxes in a timely manner. You must maintain your house. We don't look in the windows to see if the house is maintained, but here's what can happen. Let's say your house is not maintained, and a neighbor sees that the foliage in the backyard is overgrown. They see vermin, rodents. They're going to call the city. And that complaint is going to get back to the mortgage company. So things need to be kept in a good state of maintenance.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (08:09):

As people get older, it's harder to maintain those things. With a reverse mortgage, could they draw money out to pay a gardener or a landscaper or something like that?

Janice Cohen (08:18):

Absolutely. A lot of people will calculate how much they need per month to make their lives manageable, easier. And then they can receive that amount monthly in order to pay for these services.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (08:30):

That's wonderful. Do your clients also sometimes use them for aging and place modifications like stair lifts and ramps, grab bars?

Janice Cohen (08:38):

Absolutely. My clients are people who want to remain in their homes for the rest of their lives, generally.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (08:45):

I'm sure people are wondering, "Can I get a reverse mortgage and live elsewhere?"

Janice Cohen (08:48):

You cannot. A reverse mortgage is designed for your primary residence. Having said that, clients in New Jersey will sometimes spend the winter in Florida. And that's never a problem to do that because if New Jersey is going to continue to be your primary residence, you can spend half of your year wherever you'd like, as long as your driver's license is New Jersey, your social security information is linked to a New Jersey address.

Janice Cohen (09:18):

These are the things that make the state in which your home is located your primary residence. If you live in your home half a year, but you claim a homestead exemption in another state, you have credit cards linked to another address, you have a driver's license from another state, that's not going to work.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (09:37):

You're not really a resident there.

Janice Cohen (09:39):

Everything should be uniform and linked to the home that is your primary residence.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (09:46):

The residence you've used to take out the reverse mortgage, in other words?

Janice Cohen (09:49):

Precisely.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (09:50):

Speaking of New Jersey, I believe you were a cantor there for how many years with your beautiful singing voice and everything?

Janice Cohen (09:55):

For 25 years, I was a cantor in a reformed synagogue in New Jersey. And now I'm here in beautiful Los Angeles.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (10:03):

And you bring all that love for your congregation to your work now.

Janice Cohen (10:08):

The love that I have and have always had for my community is what led me to do what I'm doing. I'm truly invested in the benefit that this program is having on my clients. I want them to feel not only are they happy, but they would shout it from the highest mountain that this reverse mortgage made their lives better.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (10:30):

Your business has really boomed through the COVID crisis. And I bet reverse mortgages were a lifeline for some people.

Janice Cohen (10:37):

The fact that I became as busy as I did during COVID was a big surprise to me. And I thought, "Okay. When someone is in his or her own home, they can control who comes in and who comes out. And it is going to make life more manageable for that person during a pandemic," which let's face it, highly unusual sets of circumstances.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (11:01):

Yes.

Janice Cohen (11:02):

But I was happy to be able to provide that for people.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (11:05):

What do you find is the biggest sticking point for people?

Janice Cohen (11:08):

That's a very interesting question. Sometimes a person will say to me, "I want to be able to leave an inheritance for my children." And I say, "You may not leave them a paid off house, but they're going to be able to leave a legacy to their children." But I want to tell you something that you might find surprising.

Janice Cohen (11:28):

The vast majority of the time, it's the children who are calling me to do the reverse mortgage for the purpose of getting care for their parents. Interestingly, I get the phone call from the wealthiest child. Why the wealthiest child? You have the son who's, let's say, a CEO of a company. He'll say, "I love my brother and my sister.

Janice Cohen (11:50):

I've been giving my parents money every month, but the time has come for us to share equitably in the care of my parents. My feeling is that I am currently funding my sibling's inheritance by giving my mother money every month that I will not see in the event that something happens to her, and we are all accepting equal responsibility if we do the reverse mortgage for my parents."

Marty Stevens-Heebner (12:15):

That makes so much sense. In Los Angeles, we have a saying cash poor, house rich, because for example, there's an area called Calabasas, and 30 years ago, that was farm country. Now it's where the Kardashians live. So if you paid $50,000 for a house in what the 80s, it's now worth millions. When you're putting together a reverse mortgage, is it the current appraisal that's used for what amount they get or something else?

Janice Cohen (12:42):

It's a very interesting question, Marty. I do a lot of reverse mortgages in Calabasas, in Beverly Hills, and my clients all bought their homes in the 70s, 80s for less than $100,000 in some cases. But if a person has a home for which they paid $100,000 and it's now worth $5 million, if they sell that home, they are going to have close to a million dollars in long term capital gains taxes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (13:15):

Wow.

Janice Cohen (13:16):

It's a huge chunk. A home is a highly appreciated asset. There is a law that says, if you own a home jointly with a spouse, and that spouse passes away, the surviving spouse gets what's called a step up in basis upon death. What that means is, once one of you passes away, you are no longer subject to long term capital gains. You get a step up in basis upon death. I'm working with a couple right now who paid a couple of $100,000 for their home.

Janice Cohen (13:49):

It is now worth $3.7 million, and they are trying to plan the next two years. He is not well, but they're hoping he's going to recuperate. They're saying, "We want to be here while we are together. If something happens to one of us, we'll get the step up in basis so we won't be subject to long term capital gains anymore," and that is when the surviving spouse will sell. It's very important information for tax planning.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (14:19):

Yes, it is.

Janice Cohen (14:20):

People will often list their home, not realizing that they will be subject to long-term capital gains. But if they wait until one of them passes away, then they will not be subject to long-term capital gains.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (14:34):

That is so important.

Janice Cohen (14:35):

I have several different programs that I offer. And this program that I'm discussing with them is a low cost, higher interest rate program. They have a very large mortgage to pay off. It's about $1.8 million mortgage. We are going to get that mortgage paid off for them.

Janice Cohen (14:55):

If they decide that they want to remain in the house for the next five years or 10 years, they certainly can do that. No payments will ever be expected from them, which is really nice because right now, they are scraping together money every month to make their mortgage payments.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (15:11):

Imagine if suddenly that mortgage payment every month just goes away.

Janice Cohen (15:16):

Right.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (15:17):

That can make such a huge difference to have those thousands still in your bank account each month.

Janice Cohen (15:22):

And for a lot of people, that's all they need. They're not looking for a big influx of cash. They just want to stem the flow of money every month.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (15:33):

Reverse mortgages used to have such a bad rap. Why was that, and what was the shift that happened?

Janice Cohen (15:38):

Back when I began doing reverse mortgages in 2005, if a person had a pulse, I could do a reverse mortgage for them. In 2013, the department of housing and urban development came out with the Reverse Mortgage Enhancement Act. It was a refined approach to reverse mortgages. To be quite honest, it pulled back some of the money that we lend, because we used to lend a much greater percentage of the home value than we do now.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (16:07):

Still, 50% is huge.

Janice Cohen (16:09):

50% is huge, but it used to be much more. In the past, we did not do a financial underwrite of each borrower to see if they had a history of a willingness and capacity to make payments in a timely manner on their taxes, their homeowner's insurance, and their credit cards.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (16:28):

So you need to make sure that they have a solid credit report.

Janice Cohen (16:31):

Exactly. And that used to not be the case. Now, mind you, if there are some derogatories on a credit report, we can usually write a letter that would explain extenuating circumstances, loss of a job, an illness, death of a spouse. These are all legitimate extenuating circumstances.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (16:51):

Here's a really important question. After you pass away or after you move out, what happens with that loan balance from the reverse mortgage?

Janice Cohen (17:00):

Once the person leaves the house permanently is when the loan becomes due and payable. At the time of the application, we collect from our borrower, who is the person that they would like to have settle their estate? What is that person's address? What is that person's phone number? That person, however, has to be an authorized person to whom we can speak. And that authorization has to be made clear in their trust.

Janice Cohen (17:28):

Anyone out there whose home is not in a trust really needs to reconsider getting a trust prepared and putting the house in the trust. Because the trust specifies who is authorized on your behalf to communicate with lenders, with tax collectors, with the insurance agency and a realtor. Let's say you want your house to be sold. If the house is not in a trust and they don't have a specific person who's authorized that they can be dealing with, the house has to go through probate.

Janice Cohen (18:00):

A big problem can occur with reverse mortgages when no one has the authority to communicate with the lender, communicate with the realtor, and the house has to go through probate, that can take months. And upon the death of the borrower is when the loan becomes due and payable, and the family has to make sure that the loan is repaid. They can apply for an extension, but six months is the initial timeframe.

Janice Cohen (18:27):

And it is a far superior position to have that trust and say, "We want to sell, here's our realtor. You'll have your money back within three months when the house is sold." Sometimes one of the children will say, "I want to keep this house is my own," in which case, that child will apply for a traditional mortgage in their own name, and they will use the proceeds from that mortgage to extinguish the reverse mortgage.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (18:55):

Back to your client who got her reverse mortgage in the 90s.

Janice Cohen (18:58):

Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (18:58):

And it's now worth a million dollars, because I think on average it increases 3% per year, more or less.

Janice Cohen (19:03):

Just about.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (19:04):

So compound interest. Now, I'm assuming this woman lived in Southern California.

Janice Cohen (19:08):

She's in Malibu.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (19:09):

So very high value, bought for not much money [inaudible 00:19:12] speaking.

Janice Cohen (19:12):

Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (19:13):

Her beneficiaries would have no problem, but in other parts of the country, the prices haven't gone up so much. In some places where it hasn't inflated so much or in some cases deflated, the price of the home, that would be really difficult for the family to pay off, which is.

Janice Cohen (19:26):

I did Gladys's reverse mortgage in New Jersey. She was one of my first clients. It was like 17 years ago. I get a phone call about two months ago, "Hi, Janice. I don't know if you remember your client, Gladys Smith." I'm her nephew. I said, "Oh yes. How is she doing?" "She's not doing well. She's in hospice and we don't have enough money to take care of her," but she never used the reverse mortgage proceeds, and now the line of credit that she had on the reverse mortgage is much larger than the value of her home.

Janice Cohen (19:59):

I said, "Gladys's nephew. Get on the phone tomorrow with the servicer of the reverse mortgage and tell them you want every penny of the available line of credit. You want it all in cash in Gladys's account, every penny of it, because it's hers to take and the house is worth less than what's available." So, "Now why," you would ask, "Why is she telling you to take out the money when the house is not even worth what's available on the line of credit?"

Janice Cohen (20:28):

And I'll tell you. A reverse mortgage is a non-recourse loan. Non-recourse means that heirs are not going to be on the hook to repay anything above and beyond whatever the house can be sold for. So Gladys's house, once she's been removed from the house feet first, which is what my father always used to say about how he wanted to leave his house.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (20:51):

That's true. It's true.

Janice Cohen (20:52):

And he did. He succeeded. At the time that Gladys is taken out of the house, the house will be listed for sale and the reverse mortgage will be satisfied through the proceeds of the sale. Even if the proceeds are lower than the balance on the mortgage, whatever the house will sell for will satisfy the reverse mortgage.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (21:13):

That's remarkable.

Janice Cohen (21:14):

It is. Heirs are never on the hook to repay anything above and beyond what they can sell the house for. And if the value of the house is higher than what's owed on the reverse mortgage, the reverse mortgage will be satisfied and anything above and beyond the satisfaction of the mortgage goes to the heirs. So I was happy for them. I said, "You have a little nest egg here, take it all out, put it in Gladys's account, use it for her care. And when she's done needing care, that will go to you."

Marty Stevens-Heebner (21:43):

Who says that to their client?

Janice Cohen (21:45):

I probably shouldn't have said it, but I wanted to remind them that it is a non-recourse loan.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (21:51):

That is your big heart that is coming at it from a people perspective.

Janice Cohen (21:56):

I care more about these families than I care about a hedge fund on Wall Street.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (22:00):

Thank you.

Janice Cohen (22:00):

So sue me.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (22:01):

I've heard you use the term hairy loan. What is the hairy loan?

Janice Cohen (22:07):

Oh, my gosh. I'm the queen of the hairy loan. Did you ever find a piece of taffy on the street and it's got hair stuck to it, it's got dirt stuck to it?

Marty Stevens-Heebner (22:19):

Yeah, we find that in housing.

Janice Cohen (22:20):

Sometimes I feel like this is representative of some of my loans. Now, I do very complex loans because many of my loans come from estate planning attorneys and probate litigators. So there are issues associated with my loans very often to start out with, conservatorships, powers of attorney, requiring doctors letters, feuding beneficiaries, feuding trustees. Just unbelievable messes that I get involved with for the benefit of the person who's being fought over, or usually it's their money that's being fought over.

Janice Cohen (22:55):

I'll give you an example of that I'm working on right now. Borrower bought the property from an individual 20 years ago, who did a seller carryback. So he financed the purchase of the house. He was the bank for them. They paid off the seller, but the seller never filed a release noting that the loan was paid in full. So this of course is told to me by the escrow company. I'm like, "Oh, my God, this guy, if he's still alive is 97 years old."

Janice Cohen (23:24):

Well through an amazing effort, we located the son of this man who is authorized to sign a release saying that the mortgage has been paid in full. Had we not located him, we would've had to have our borrower purchase a bond. A bond that if anyone came after her for this money, she could say, "Here I have this bond." It's an insurance policy to make sure that this money would be paid by the bond company if someone came after her. But meanwhile, we located the son. He's going to sign the release. End of story. Happy, happy ending.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (24:03):

Oh, phew.

Janice Cohen (24:04):

That's one hairy loan.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (24:06):

I'm learning so much today. What's the favorite part of your job?

Janice Cohen (24:11):

My favorite part of my job is getting a client to the finish line. Calling them and saying, "We are clear to close. When are you available for the notary?" It's the best feeling, because a lot of my clients are not accustomed to having as deep an examination for the purpose of getting a mortgage as we are doing. And it's not just us.

Janice Cohen (24:33):

All lenders nowadays are doing a very deep examination of their clients. There are a lot of hoops to jump through. And these are people, in many cases, who have not borrowed money in decades. They're saying, "Oh, my God, I can't believe how in depth this is." And so when we get to the end, "I can't believe you're finally calling me and telling me that we're clear to close. I didn't think this day was ever going to come."

Marty Stevens-Heebner (25:00):

And I'm sure it drag's on probably for a couple of months.

Janice Cohen (25:00):

When people say, "How long is this going to take?" And I say, "It could be six to eight weeks." "What? Six to eight weeks? But I think it shouldn't take more than three to four weeks." These higher value homes here in LA with title that hasn't been looked at in 40 or 50 years, it can take longer.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (25:17):

Because they're being thorough. We don't want another 2008 crash.

Janice Cohen (25:20):

We certainly don't. Speaking of the 2008 crash, a lender or a broker now has to go through an appraisal management company. I, as the mortgage consultant cannot know who the appraiser is, and I can't communicate with the appraiser. When someone calls me and says, "I'm not happy with my appraisal," I have absolutely nothing to do with your appraisal.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (25:42):

It's not just from the outside that they appraise it. They have to be able to get into your home or-

Janice Cohen (25:47):

Oh, yeah.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (25:48):

... at least pass the front door. And we worked together dealing with a hoarding situation.

Janice Cohen (25:52):

Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (25:53):

And the appraiser just couldn't get to appraise the home.

Janice Cohen (25:56):

A hoarding situation is considered a health and safety risk. That house had piles and piles of papers that would've gone up like a Tinder box if that house caught fire.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (26:07):

People don't realize that newspapers as they decomposed can spontaneously combust. It's so dangerous, but we got it done.

Janice Cohen (26:17):

Yeah, yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (26:17):

We got it done. Got it appraised.

Janice Cohen (26:18):

Thank goodness.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (26:20):

And how do you feel as you're going through these journeys with the clients, especially when you work with older adults who are in their 80s, sometimes 90s? I know that you feel emotions strongly.

Janice Cohen (26:31):

I do. I have had instances where I've woken up at 4:30 in the morning ruminating over a situation with a client. I think we all do that. It is an emotional roller coaster. Sometimes I'm working on a reverse mortgage, and the borrower with whom I'm working passes away. That's happened a number of times.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (26:54):

That's very sad.

Janice Cohen (26:56):

It is.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (26:56):

It's just very sad. It's lovely that you're there for them, because I'm sure sometimes there are some really long phone calls.

Janice Cohen (27:03):

There sometimes are. But I tell you, I'm very grateful to the people who call me on behalf of their clients to do the reverse mortgage.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (27:11):

You care so much about your clients, and you just care about people in general. I'm sure you go on this emotional journey with your clients and also your clients must go on their own emotional journey. Can you describe what that's like?

Janice Cohen (27:25):

I'll tell you an interesting story. When I lived in New Jersey, I had a lead. His name was Marvin, and I spoke to Marvin every few months and Marvin said, "Janice, my future is uncertain. My wife is very ill. I want to wait and see what's going to happen because I just don't know where I see myself if something happens to her." I said, "That makes sense. Don't lock yourself into anything until you know what your future looks like."

Janice Cohen (27:55):

After about a year, Marvin's wife passed away. And he was a champ. He took care of her. He made sure she got the care she needed. He kept her at home. Family surrounded her. He was really good. I'd give him a call periodically. A year and a half later, I get a phone call from Marvin. He says, "Janice, you're never going to believe it. I met a woman. Her name is Judy, and I think I'm going to ask her to marry me."

Janice Cohen (28:23):

And of course she said yes, because Marvin is a doll. And they applied jointly for the reverse mortgage. He said, "I want her to be the beneficiary of everything I have, which is mostly the house." A little house in Toms River, New Jersey. I did the mortgage for him. A year later, I get a phone call from Judy, "Janice, Marvin passed away." And of course it was sad.

Janice Cohen (28:47):

And I said, "Judy, that house is yours to live in for the rest of your life." Talk about ups and downs with Marvin and Judy and his late wife. He saw that his life was in a state of flux, and it was not the right time to make a decision that could have permanent implications for his life. And a reverse mortgage can have permanent implications, so it's good that he waited.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (29:13):

Thank you so much, Janice. You're just always great to talk to. You explain things so well.

Janice Cohen (29:19):

Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, Marty.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (29:24):

Thank you so much for listening to, how to move your mom and still be on speaking terms afterward. Please visit www.howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes, featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host Morty Stevens-Heebner.