013: Re-visioning Life In the Golden Years of Adulthood – Margit Novack

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (00:00)
Wouldn't you love to have a wonderfully written guide for what your later years or those of your aging parents could be. Squint: Re-visioning the Second Half of your Life by Margit Novack is that guide. Margit Novack's vision for later life is no less than revolutionary. And she's here to tell us all about it. Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that as are so many things having to do with later life. How To Move Your Mom and still be on speaking terms afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you. I'm honored and delighted to have Margit Novack, who is my mentor, colleague, and dear friend. Welcome Margit.

Margit Novack: (01:10)
Thank you, Marty. I am delighted to be here. It's great to see you again.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (01:14)
It's been forever and I can't say enough great things about your book. Let me tell you a little bit about Margit. Margit Novack is an entrepreneur, thought leader in aging and the founding president of the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers. She launched her award-winning company Moving Solutions in 1996. The National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers recognized Margit's commitment and service by creating the Margit Novack Award for excellence in senior move management. And then in 2020 Margit left the formal work world and began a new role as author, speaker, and champion of a revisioned picture of aging. She lives with her husband, Bill, and three dogs, and she loves to kayak up wind. When you read Squint, you'll know what she's talking about. She's also the author of the trailed blazing new book Squint: Re-visioning the Second Half of your Life. Margit, do you remember how you and I first met and what really sealed our friendship?

Margit Novack: (02:13)
I do. We met at a NASMM meeting and I was talking about the last time I was mothered. It was a story about my, it wasn't my final days with my mom, but it was one of the things I remembered of what it still felt like to be mothered. And I was thinking about this 30 years after my mom had passed away. It's now almost 50 years. And what I was describing is that she had been ill and in the hospital for many months. Today, it would be treated on an outpatient basis, but she had been in for six, eight months and I would visit her each day. And at this time it was my birthday and my then boyfriend had not given me anything, not even a gift.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (03:04)
Ooh.

Margit Novack: (03:05)
And I walked into my mom's room and she said, hi, honey, happy birthday. And I burst out crying. And she comforted me. And what I thought of years later, because often it takes us years to look back and think about what an experience really meant. This was the last time I was mothered by my mom, from her hospital bed. She became very ill after that and died within a month. But I also thought about the fact that I had been the dutiful daughter taking care of her, visiting each day, talking to doctors, paying the bill, the hospital bills. I wanted desperately to feel like a daughter. And she wanted desperately I believed to feel like a mother. So that experience we had together fulfilled something very special in each of us. And I believe that it was as important to her feeling like herself as it was to me, feeling taken care of. And it's really exquisite to think of what it feels like to be mothered.

Margit Novack: (04:20)
And no matter how old you are when your mother or your father passes away, there may be months where you are the caregiver, but I hope we all hold onto that feeling of when they took care of us. It's not physically taking care of us. It's someone taking care of us emotionally in the way that parents are so selfless. It's a wonderful feeling. And I was telling this story and there was a lot that resonated with you and you shared your own experience. And I think after that, we were just connected in a spiritual as well as professional and fun way forever after.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (05:03)
I couldn't believe it because I was a newbie. That was my first NASMM conference. And I had been admiring you from afar. We had a weird coincidence that we discovered right then. And that was, we had both been 26 years old when our 58 year old mothers had died. Separate times. I love that blog that you wrote about that years ago. And of course that's in your book and it's just wonderful. You refer to the 10 pound mirror in your book. Can you tell us what that's about? Because I thought it was fascinating.

Margit Novack: (05:35)
We have a mirror in our home. People like to look at themselves in this mirror. They pose in front of it and say, Hey, I look good. I look about 10 pounds better than I normally look. The optics are off somehow. And most people like to see themselves looking just a little bit better. The mirror is an object, but I thought about how the mirror could be a symbol for just being kinder to ourselves and not as critical as we often are. When we look at ourselves, when we think about ourselves, we're usually harsh critics. This mirror, which encourages us to see ourselves in a better light, maybe that could be something that we could become for someone else. Maybe a person can be a 10 pound mirror for someone else and help them see themselves just a little bit better than they are. I had friends and colleagues who did that for me. And it was sometimes embarrassing, but always delicious.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (06:44)
Yes.

Margit Novack: (06:45)
To have people who make you feel good about yourself. And I believe, and I hope that I have been 10 pound mirrors for some people. And I think it's a good metaphor for us to keep, whether it's someone who works for us, a family member, can we say some things to them and about them that make them feel good about themselves? It's a gift. So I hope that our goal is to be a 10 pound mirror for other people. If I'm a 10 pound mirror for other people that will make me see myself better.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (07:22)
You have definitely been a 10 pound mirror for me repeatedly over the years. And I'm very grateful to you for that. Because people aren't always the 10 pound mirror for others in their family, there are those big conflicts that can often arise when that huge shift happens in later life for people. And I love the part in Squint where you point out that we speak about our aging pets in a much more positive way than we do our aging parents or older people in general. What is that about? Why do we do that?

Margit Novack: (07:53)
Well, I'll get to the why. I wrote this when one day I heard two women talking about parents and one said, how are your parents doing? And the other said, oh, they're deteriorating. And I thought, that's how she's talking about her parents. What about they have some struggles, but they're resilient. They're making due, they're getting by, I'm still involve with them. And that's when I thought about my aging pets. At the time I had a very old Greyhound and a very old cat. And I think this is not just about me. I think it's about every pet owner with an old cat or an old dog. If someone says, how is Peace Blossom doing?

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (08:38)
Aww. Thank you.

Margit Novack: (08:41)
You would've said she's doing great. It's hard for her to get up and sometimes there are accidents. She can't go for walks very much. And I have to give only soft food. I have to lift her into the car. I'm looking into a ramp. You would have done what we did, which is we had ramps. We had steps for our cat so she could continue to get into my husband's chair on her own because dignity was very important to Tiger. We cut a hole in the litter box because she could no longer step in. And we felt happy for everyday we had our aging pets. I think almost everyone with old pets is happy for everyday they have with them, even though the pets are very different from who they were when they were younger. Why is it different with our parents? We don't look at our pets and see what they've lost. We accept them with their changes. And we're okay with that. I think it is much harder for people to accept changes in their family members.

Margit Novack: (09:52)
I looked at my old cat saying, that's what a 20 year cat looks like. This is what an 86 year old person is. And to celebrate the good experiences and times you have with them not, oh, it took so long to walk here. I have to do this. I have to do that. We're not embarrassed when our cats had accidents, but we'd be terribly embarrassed if our parents have accidents. And we're asking them to be something they can't. And I'm not suggesting that everyone's parents develop incontinence, but we are able to accept changes in pets. And we have a much harder time accepting them in our parents and believing that they can still have a good quality of life even though it's a different quality of life. My old cat had some hours in the sun every day and he gave love and received love. We need to find a way to look at people as they change and not just see them as diminished, but interact with them in the way they can be. And I think find creative ways to help them be as independent as possible.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (11:02)
It's extraordinary because when I read about that in your book and you talk about it so eloquently, it really struck a chord with me. It seems like we see what is lacking in humans versus what's still there with pets. And thank you for bringing up my sweet late Peace Blossom who passed away at 18, such a good long life. In our pets we celebrate what's still there. We don't do that with older adults.

Margit Novack: (11:27)
No. I think we also need to have a paradigm switch and it's not just the family members. It's the older adults, where we look at mobility aids and see them with embarrassment or shame versus this is great. Now I can do something easily and independently. When my husband was about six months away from his hip replacement surgery, he said, we're not doing things and we're not going places that we used to because of my hip. Let's look for a scooter. I was on Facebook marketplace the next day and I had one. And I was surprised that he said that, because I thought if I would suggest it, he might be offended. But he saw it as not wanting our lives to get smaller.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:13)
To be limited.

Margit Novack: (12:14)
And I think whether it's a cane, or a walker, or a grab bar, people are so reluctant, both the family members and older adults to look at these aids as something that enables them to continue to have a full life and a big life. And that's a big obstacle. It really is a switch that we all need to make in our heads so that we look at hearing aids and say, that's a way to stay connected. Of course, I would want that.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (12:43)
I've met young people with hearing aids. How wonderful we have these things. I remember my father before he ended up needing diapers and a stair lift in the home in Buffalo. He'd say, oh God, if I end up with diapers, just shoot me. That was John Heath or what can I tell you. When the time came, yeah of course that's what you use. And if you need a stair lift, you need a stair lift. He didn't realize that these things help you keep going. And these are good things to use.

Margit Novack: (13:06)
One of my favorite stories is from a 100 year old. I had moved into a retirement community when he was in his low 80s and he moved to a building that was far from the main dining room. And about 17, 18 years later, I got a call saying, I don't know if you remember me. I did. And he said, I'm going to be 100. I live in building H, which is the farthest from the main dining room and where all events are held. And I'm finding that I some days ordering my meal delivered because I don't feel like walking that far or I'm not going to events. I don't want my life to get smaller. So I want to move to a closer apartment.

Margit Novack: (13:46)
And I loved that a 100 year old doesn't want his life to get smaller and took steps to make sure that it didn't. That to me is someone saying, I'm going to buy a ticket. Why can't I win the lottery? God, you never let me win the lottery. And then God says, help me out here, buy a ticket. I think people as they age need to buy tickets, they need to have some intentionality and some mindfulness that if they want to age well, they both need to do physical fitness and be connected. And look at the things that are involved in aging. That may include bringing in different types of modifications to enable them to thrive and be independent. So that's buying a ticket. It doesn't happen by accident.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (14:36)
You have to be aware, yes. Don't be embarrassed to ask for help or recommendations because the whole point is live your richest life to the variant. Suck that marrow out of life. In your book, you cite a study that showed older people are generally happier and more content than younger people. Are you happier in your later life?

Margit Novack: (14:56)
I am. I know that the experience of writing the book was one that gave me a lot of aha moments. I did revise my personal narrative a number of times, and that was interesting, but I think there's more acceptance of who you are. There's also a recognition of resilience. There's this forgiving one's self for failures and sometimes just rejoicing in things that were put off for many years. When in the first few months, when I left work, a paid job and I could read a book at three in the afternoon or go for a walk, I just couldn't get over it. Because I had worked full time my entire adult life. And it seemed miraculous that I could be reading books in the afternoon.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:43)
And you could enjoy yourself and go kayaking.

Margit Novack: (15:46)
That's interesting because it's not just having time. I think it's having mindful time. For my husband and myself. He had a really severe heart attack three years ago.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (15:56)
Oh. Yeah.

Margit Novack: (15:56)
And he miraculously recovered. But when he recovered, we were both back at work, full time seeing each other for an hour or two in the evening. And for us it took COVID. It took a complete shutdown when we went to a shore home and said, if not now when? We're healthy, we're doing well. If we don't appreciate this now, if we're not grateful for each of these days, when are we going to do that? So it's not just having time. I think it's being mindful that you have this time and being grateful that you have this time.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (16:29)
That's beautifully put. And that's just one of the keen insights you offer in Squint. There are so many. You also talk about that later life is different and you can be engaged and there's no way to age quote appropriately. You do your own thing. Like you got a tattoo.

Margit Novack: (16:46)
I wasn't that old when I got the tattoo, I was probably 55. I was getting my hair done and came home with a tattoo and it's a little butterfly. When I gained weight, its wings got bigger. But when I started thinking about senior ink, which is what they're referring to for older adults who are getting first time tattoos, they're one of the largest age groups. There are hundreds of thousands of people above 65 who are getting their first tattoos. We think of it as something that young people do. Some people are getting them because they're no longer working full time. And they feel that they have more freedom to have a tattoo. Some people are getting them because their mother said over my dead body and now their mother is dead. Some people are getting them because people say, what will it look like when you're old and your skin is wrinkled and they go, my skin's already wrinkled.

Margit Novack: (17:38)
That's not why most people are getting them. Most people are getting tattoos when they are older because they crave an experience or they crave a connection. My brother-in-law is 83. When he was in probably mid 70s, he said to each of his five grandchildren, if you want a tattoo, I will be with you when you get your first tattoo and I will get one also. And he has flown around the country three different times to be with his grandchildren when they got their first tattoo. And he has three different tattoos representing those experiences. The experience was the tattoo, but it was also this bonding with their grandfather who was wanting to be with them to share it. So people were using tattoos and the experience of getting them as a way of connecting to one another. And that's not how we typically think about tattoos.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (18:35)
No.

Margit Novack: (18:35)
Even nail art. I was at a salon getting my nails done and I saw a woman in her mid 80s getting nail art. And my first reaction was agist. Oh, that's unusual to see someone that age getting nail art. Then I did some research and there were articles interviewing older women who had gotten nail art. And one woman said that having nail art caused other people to either come up to them and start conversations or it made it easier for them to start conversations. And they liked having the increased connection that having nail art gave them. So I loved how mindful and aware these women were that they sought connection and had a way of getting the connection they wanted with other people. And I know you might say those were very casual discussions, but I think we all saw this in COVID. We yearn for deep discussions, but sometimes casual discussions are gratifying too. I think we need a combination of them. I love that people took action to enable them to connect more easily.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (19:44)
That's brilliant. And I love that you saw that and then went and researched it. That's so Margit of you. But talking about, sometimes people are avoided if they're ailing or older because people don't know what to say. And that's awful. You talk about this beautifully in your book.

Margit Novack: (20:03)
It's sad. It's sad for the person being ignored. And I think it's sad for the people who do the ignoring. I read a blog from a physician who had been newly diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease. And it was the first day of the blog. He said, as a physician, I understand full well the progression of this disease, but what scares me right now is not my future with the disease, but my fear of being abandoned by my friends, because they won't know what to say. And he said, I know this will happen.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (20:36)
Yeah.

Margit Novack: (20:36)
Because that's what I would do if people had dementia, I would be embarrassed and not know what to say. So I would avoid them. And he said, so what I fear is that fear of abandonment. And sometimes reading stories like that helped me think about, would I do that? And I felt that I could and I would, and I needed to not do that. When that arises, I want to reach in and be the person I want to be, which is the person that doesn't ignore them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:06)
Doesn't avoid them.

Margit Novack: (21:07)
So I'm hoping that reading those stories helps me be the person I want to be.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:12)
People aren't always aware of what's going on inside them. Why do I feel this resistance?

Margit Novack: (21:15)
All the articles that I have read have said expressing sincere sorrow, concern in saying, how can I help? Is the best thing. They may tell you it's nothing, but still they appreciate being asked.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (21:29)
And maybe they don't need help right then. Maybe a few days later, Margit said she could help. And I do need some help and they'll reach out to you. That's so important because people want engagement. You have a really interesting section early in the book called the Bubbie Chronicles in which you talk about your mother-in-law Bubbie for whom you and your husband, Bill were caregivers. And Bubbie had a lot of struggles, but through tough love, you and your husband were able to help her and it was good for her. It was also good for you guys. What advice would you give families that need to show tough love to an older parent?

Margit Novack: (22:01)
I think the concept of tough love toward parents and older family members is really complicated because we are taught to respect our parents and to obey our parents. The question becomes, when do you become involved? When are you willing to do something that is not what your parent wants? In our case, my mother-in-law was we thought abusing Valium, but it was prescribed by a doctor. So we changed doctors. We did go through a withdrawal phase with her and she then got on an antidepressant and she did remarkably better. And she became like a different person. But whether it's taking away keys or being concerned about how much a parent is drinking, the question is when do we insert our judgment for someone else?

Margit Novack: (22:52)
My grandmother moved to an apartment in her mid 80s. She wanted the apartment, but thought it was too expensive. And we spoke with the leasing agent and said, she doesn't want to pay more than this amount per month. Can we pay the difference? And she made us up a separate lease and she made a dummy lease up for my grandmother and told her it was because her son was a doctor, which she completely believed. And she wasn't supposed to tell anyone else about the special deal. It was interesting. We had no qualms about essentially lying to my grandmother because we thought this was about preserving her dignity and comfort. But someone might argue she was mentally competent and you deceived her. And that's correct. We felt comfortable with our decision. With driving, that is a concern because there are other people who could be impacted.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (23:52)
Yeah.

Margit Novack: (23:53)
But I think it also requires understanding what giving up keys means, independence. I would encourage anyone to read widely about how people have approach this. The fact that it doesn't work at one stage of their life doesn't mean it's not something you can revisit at a later stage. It's not a battle that gets lost forever. It's a battle you may choose not to fight at a certain time. One thing that has struck me was the concept of a pyrrhic victory and Pyrrhus was an ancient emperor who did win the battle, but lost all of his generals. And in fact, his army was decimated. And he said, another victory like this, and I'm ruined. From that came the expression, pyrrhic victory, a victory where the cost was so high that you had to question was it really a victory.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (24:47)
I read an article recently about the car keys. And they said, rather than saying, you're too old to drive, you might approach them and say, what about other modes of transportation, sometimes can facilitate a better conversation about it.

Margit Novack: (24:59)
I also think for many people, especially women, grocery shopping is something they have done their entire life. And while you could say, oh, but mom, we can get this delivered, that doesn't get them out and with people.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (25:15)
Yeah.

Margit Novack: (25:16)
When my mother-in-law used a walker and oxygen tank, she loves to go to the grocery store. She put her tank next to her pocketbook. She didn't need the walker because she was able to use the cart. And she went up and down every aisle. She had all three meals prepared by the community in which she lived. She didn't need a lot of groceries, but she liked going to the grocery store. So when we think, oh, we've got such a good solution because we can get food delivered. We're missing the fact that they still may want that experience. So maybe the solution, isn't how to get the food. Maybe the solution is how do they still keep the experience? We're ready to say, have the food delivered. That's not addressing her comfort level of, I like going to the grocery store.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:04)
Right.

Margit Novack: (26:05)
It's something they've done their entire life.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:07)
Yeah. Margit, I could talk to you for hours. It's Squint: Re-visioning the Second Half of Life. I have dogeared so many pages and written little things in pencil. I remember when you were first talking about doing this book and it's been so exciting to see how your ideas have evolved. Thank you so much.

Margit Novack: (26:27)
Thank you very much for having me. I'll look forward to seeing the rest of your interesting podcasts.

Marty Stevens-Heebner: (26:34)
Thank you so much for listening to, How to Move Your Mom and still be on speaking terms afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes, featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.