023: Overwhelmed by Moving or Downsizing? Let a Move Manager Tackle it for You – NASMM Co-Executive Directors Mary Kay Buysse & Jennifer Pickett

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
You've heard me mention in a couple of episodes that my company, Clear Home Solutions is a senior and specialty move management company. There's a whole association full of us and rather than have me blab on and on about what I do and who we are, I am lucky enough to have the co-executive directors of the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers, otherwise known as NASMM. Stay tuned.

Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life. How to move your mom and still be on speaking terms afterward, provides in depth conversations with professionals, old adults and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you. Mary Kay and Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Thanks for having us.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
This has been a long time in the making, at least in my head. And I want to tell you a little something about Mary Kay and Jennifer and you'll find out why they're so near and dear to my heart. They are the co-executive directors of the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers. I am honored that I just became president of our association. It's about thousand members both nationally and internationally. So a little bit about them.
Mary Kay Buysse is NASMM's co-executive director since 2006. She guides membership recruitment, education program development and day-to-day operations for NASMM. With the master of science degree in gerontology. Mary Kay has worked in the nonprofit association sector for 24 plus years. Prior to joining NASMM, she was a case manager for an area agency on aging in the Chicago area where she now lives and later served as director of program development for leading age Illinois.
Jennifer Picket has served as NASMM's co executive director since 2006. They started together. Jennifer oversees NASMM's day-to-day operations and membership services as well as the development and marketing of NASMM services, creative work and programs, which includes NASMM's annual conference and expo. And for both of you, I know that's a massive job. Jennifer brings over 30 years of non-profit management expertise and years of marketing, creative and event planning experience to NASMM and she's worked in a non-profit segment of aging services association management for nearly three decades. Thank you both. I'm so glad you're here. We get to talk about all this, but of course the first question is always, what's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
My mom's dad, my grandpa O'Neill and my grandmother had died in 1965. He passed away in 1969 and in those four years he just threw himself into our life. We had a little baby in our house and so my mom asked him to take us to school to pick us up from school and I'll never forget, I told him I was taking up volleyball and I came home from school one day and he had bought 13 volleyballs for me because he was sure that the best way to practice was to be able to let the ball go to the other side. I could practice on my own and then I could practice for a long time. So we had 13 volleyballs in our small house for quite a long time.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Isn't that just like a grandparent, Jennifer, how about you?

JENNIFER PICKETT:
Yeah, I was blessed to have four grandparents for a good portion of my life and they couldn't have been more polar opposite. My dad's parents were the country club and golf and shopping grandparents and my mom's parents were the blue collar hunting, fishing, gardening, baking grandparents. So it was basically the best of both worlds. Chocolate chip cookies and apple pies on one end and always going shopping for my birthday with my grandmother and going to the golf course into the country club and swimming and all of that. They were really great. My parents were very much like my grandparents. So all good.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Both have such great memories of your grandparents. That's lovely. So let's talk about NASMM, the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers. This is the work that I do, but instead of boring everybody with me talking nonstop, I would love to have you guys talk about what this whole movement is about taking care of people and their personal property because there's just so many emotions attached to this sort of thing.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
We like to say we move people, not just boxes. We have a lot of great moving companies who are allied partners of NASMM and they do a fantastic job of moving those boxes. But where move managers come in are the weeks and months prior to the move and of course then those days and weeks after the move, the resettlement piece of it is just as important. So that takes a combination of soft skills and hard skills. That's what really makes the move manager unique and so needed in today's society.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
That's interesting because you mentioned soft skills. To me, something like empathy is a hard skill because you can learn technically how to pack a box and label it properly and how to organize things. But when it comes to dealing with someone with dementia or as we know, the unusual family dynamics we often encounter, you have to be able to step in not only one other person's shoes, but maybe the shoes of three or four other people and look at it from those perspectives. And you really can't teach that. I suppose somebody can learn empathy over a couple of years, but you got to have that before you start in this business. Don't you think?

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Empathy can't be taught? We've been so fortunate that the people who are attracted to this field just self-select. It's a great community of professionals because they come into this with a desire to help older adults and that's not something everyone can do. We can teach you how to estimate, we can teach you how to do that first client consultation. We can teach you how to market your business, but really you've got to come to us with a desire to help older adults and the patience and understanding that goes along with that.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
I think obviously having compassion and being empathetic, but you have to be able to listen. That is probably the number one skill is really hearing the client. You have to have a desire to work with older adults and you also have to have the gumption to be a small business owner. We have seen people that have come into this segment from more of a social service background who clearly have a desire to support and work with older adults and their families, but are terrified to make a speech in front of their rotary club or something like that. So it's a two pronged approach. You have to have all of these soft skills that really can't be taught and you have to have the hard skills that can be taught, but you also have the courage to start a business and to run a business and everything that goes into becoming a small business owner.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Being an entrepreneur is a unique proposition. People will say to me, oh, that's so great. You run your own business, you can make your own schedule. Yeah, 24/7. I make my own schedule.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
It's hard for people to make that leap. As Jennifer said, for people who've maybe been in social work or nursing all these years.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
For people who are nervous about sales and marketing, if you are at all salesy when you go to meet with someone, you are out the door. The lovely thing is we just say what we can do for them and then they just make the decision.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Well, the rise in move management I think speaks to the sort of unicorn that a move manager is. It's a kaleidoscope of skills and so we're seeing such an increase in families reaching out to our move manager saying, hey, we need help. We want an expert. We want someone who does this day in and day out.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
And I think many times with families, there's a real misunderstanding of how much work this really is. You cannot come in and downsize mom and dad who've been in their home for 48 years, in 48 hours. It just doesn't happen. In fact, it's irresponsible to think that can happen. The stress of a poorly handled move can really send that older adult into a downward spiral.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
If somebody has just a bit of dementia. It's extraordinary how much that can increase if the shift to the new home in assisted living isn't handled well because it becomes so unfamiliar. They know they're under stress for some reason that can't really figure it out. And so it really helps to make sure that the new home and assist living is set up with their favorite things that are familiar to kind of ease that move.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Under the most ideal circumstances. Transition is hard at any age. Add on someone who hasn't moved in 40 or 50 years, add on some diagnoses, whether it's dementia or Parkinson's. You add all that together. It is a daunting challenge for any family. It's really such a win-win business model. It helps the families, it helps the older adults and it helps these compassionate entrepreneurial people operating their own small businesses in the local community where it's very customized to the family's wishes, to the older adults wishes.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
There's so much loss that is associated with aging, loss of the spouse, loss of cognitive abilities, physical abilities. You get to the point where now it's time to move downsize. It's not uncommon for an older adult who's experienced a lot of loss to just say, I'm not doing this. This is too much. Because in so many ways our stuff defines us. The hallmark of senior move management is that our members help their clients start with the possessions without parting with the memories and help them get through this major transition, which they know in most circumstances will enhance their quality of life. If they've toured and had lunch and looked at an apartment and they're sitting with the marketing director or the moving coordinator and they're like, this is lovely, but I'm not ready. I'm not ready means I don't know how I'm going to move 10 pounds of potatoes into a five pound bag.
It's completely overwhelming even though they know that this is what they want to do. The great thing about move management, it doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition. A move manager can work with you over many weeks or months cleaning up the spare bedrooms that really haven't been touched since the kids moved out, and we're going to do that in July and in August we're going to do the bookcase, it's a curio cabinets or what have you. But over that time, the move manager is establishing a relationship with their client and they're breaking down the barriers that will keep a client from moving and they can quickly help this client assimilate to their new chapter in a environment that is safe and comfortable for them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And where they'll make new friends.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
Exactly.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Somebody else gets to do the cooking for you. Somebody else cleans. If someone just sneeze, they're checking you out.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Speaking to the adult children. As someone who went through this personally, it's a great opportunity for the adult children to be that loving son and/or daughter and be along the path with their parent during this transition as a source of comfort. Whereas if the adult children choose to become the project manager of the move, then they become the bad guy. There's a lot of really tough conversations where there's hurt feelings. The parent feels like they're the child and now the adult child is the parent. And there there's all these complex feelings. Adult children bring some baggage to the table, maybe stuff that they've held back about their parents. All this comes to the fore. Why not just hire someone who's expert at this? And then they can be their parents loving sons and daughters.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
Because the moon manager, at the end of the day, the only horse in the race they have is the client. They're an objective third party who can deal out those family dynamics before things do take a turn. If it's about the 12 place settings of China that mom really wants the daughter to have and she's like, I have my own China. Find a solution for that China. If that means taking it and putting it in your basement for six months, then do it. With adult children, it's a new normal for them as well. These kids may be losing their childhood home where they remember their Christmases, they remember their proms or whatever. It can be such a stressful time for the entire family.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It really is. People generally call it relocation. I call it dislocation because you're going to feel at joint until you're settled into that place. It's not like on move day, everything's fine. You need to get accustomed to it and you are sir, right Jennifer? The impact on the adult child is something nobody ever talks about.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
And what I love most about our NASMM move managers is that it's not an all or nothing proposition. Tell us what your budget is and we'll tell you what we can do with that budget. Our NASMM move managers have an entire menu of services. You can pick and choose as much as the family needs or as little as the family needs. That's what a move manager can do and I love that piece of it because so many things in today's world is an all or nothing proposition. We can really affect change in your family at whatever level you can afford.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Our tagline at Clear Home Solutions is where compassion meets know-how, so we work efficiently, but we also know how to take that time to be respectful, especially when somebody has dementia or there's something else going on. If you want experts of this who are trained to carry insurance, whose staff are employees, they're not subcontractors. That's who we are. We get in there, we literally have a couple of projects they were after people died that went on for years because of family issues. A lot of us step into hoards and handle that, which is fascinating because it's always a treasure hunt when you're doing this work, but when it's a hoarding situation, it also becomes an archeological dig. You just don't know what you're going to find.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
When you're downsizing from 2,500 square feet and you're going to maybe 750 square feet. Yeah, the move is really the smallest art. It's everything else that needs to be done before the truck comes. The thing about move management is that they will come in and do the space planning for your new residents. They will make it crystal clear what fits. So then the process of what's not going to fit crystallizes the Move Manager brings great tools. There's so much technology now.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
It's not just what they do, which is an enormous amount. It's their Rolodex, if you will. If Mr and Mrs. Smith are going to call ABC Moving Company and they're 82 years old, ABC Moving Company will do their best no doubt. But that's a one off move. But if their Home Solutions calls on behalf of Mr. And Mrs. Smith and Clear Home Solutions has given ABC moving company 75 jobs a year over the last eight years. They want to make Clear Home Solutions, very happy customer service wise. The Rolodex is a living Rolodex and it's just chalk full with handyman and moving companies and junk callers and you name it Marty, you've got the giant Rolodex.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
They're more like spreadsheets now. They're huge. We have Art Restores, all these different resale outlets for people who want to try to sell their items. Plus we do online estate sales. We partner with Max Sold. The services run the gamut. We do everything from floor planning to sorting and downsizing. We make sure everything is packed properly and then we work with the moving company on move day.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
And I think too with moving companies to have that move manager who is their advocate throughout the process, they don't even have to talk to the driver. The move manager is going to step in and say, this is what's going to happen and this is how it's going to happen.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
We'll take care of everything and make it a turnkey situation during move day. And sometimes in subsequent days we pull the items out of the boxes and set up your new home. We try to make it a reflection of the home they've left behind making the bed. We organize the kitchen, put the toiletries out, so they just walk in and they can start living there. And then we go back and we clear out their previous home through estate sales auctions, donation pickups, so it's ready for sale for lease.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
And you probably also have relationship with realtors and handyman and staging companies.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
We're so proud of the fact that our move managers are nimble. They're able to create moving plans quickly, efficiently, and successfully. We too are nimble in terms of offering the NASMM home course.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Let's talk about that a bit.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
In response to all the data that's indicating that this gigantic cohort of people, the baby boom generation, we want to stay in their homes as long as physically possible. We can help our customers that way as well. It's not about moving anywhere, but it's using all of those same skills to help you stay at home in your current living environment and creating an all new environment without moving anywhere. And a lot of times it's decluttering, organizing and outfitting the home for some changes in mobility as well.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Talking about baby boomers, a lot of people don't realize that 10,000 baby boomers are turning 65 every single day. That started in 2012. It will continue until 2032.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
And we talk about senior move management and we added specialty to our name because we're getting an influx of clients like we've never seen. It's all different kinds of people. We've seen a lot of massive relocations during the pandemic and after the pandemic where people are moving closer to family. It's military moves, it's lots of families with three or four children. So you've got a California to New Jersey move with three small children, you call a NASMM move manager. We've seen so much growth in our members' businesses because of all the different people who need move management services.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Can I just say too, we're a lot cheaper than therapy, trust me.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
Well, I was going to add to that list of the specialty moves are divorcing couples, college students.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
It's very exciting to see all these other populations jumping on the bandwagon of using a move manager.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
We are growing. It's not the most expensive business to start. With the right training, you can definitely start a business that can become really successful. You case and point, we remember the first time we met you and look what you've been able to do.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
With a lot of support from you and other NASMM members. So at conference you get about 400 people. You will never be in a friendlier room in your life.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
It's amazing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It's that empathy, the kind of person you need to be a move manager. And in general, I think to work well with older adults and their families, there has to be that patience, that inquisitiveness loving to listen to the stories because oh, do we hear stories? Especially when we're downsizing and that's great. We can work while we listen to stories. It's not a problem. Can we talk about how this all began? It's NASMM's 20th anniversary this year.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Oh, good organizations have that great starting story. It was in the early Os 2001, 2002. There were companies all over the country and everyone who was doing this thought they were the only ones in the whole country doing it. And through the magic of the internet in the early Os, they found each other online. Margaret Novak, our very first board president

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And who was at previous episode at how to move your mom.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
I think she found two dozen companies who were doing this literally from California to New York to Florida. She just asked whoever would be interested if they wanted to come together to her home in Philadelphia one weekend just to share some stories and to think about formalizing this professional field. And that's exactly what happened. Jennifer and I are just in awe of these early founders because they were trying to grow their own local business while creating the National Association.
We have to really give huge kudos to them for sacrificing a lot of their personal free time to develop this business. And then four years later, Jennifer and I were working for the Illinois LeadingAge affiliate. They asked us to formally start managing them. So we left our jobs with LeadingAge to join this amazing, exciting new venture. And we've never looked back. We're really proud of the work we've done and are proud of all of our members who've joined us on this journey. From 22 to over a 1,000 small business companies throughout the United States and somewhat internationally.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
Mary Kay and I worked side by side together for 23 years. We really understand aging services first and foremost. And we have positioned this profession as part of the continuum of aging services that it is what we would consider to be like a home and community based service. And it is a huge support for senior living communities. It's just going to continue to grow and we manage that growth by making sure that people who are coming into this profession are on the same page in terms of poor competencies, in terms of ethics, insurance requirements, you have to be a member of the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers to call yourself a senior move manager.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Because that's trademarked.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
It's trademarked.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It's been a long time since I first joined NASMM. I don't recall what the requirements are to become a NASMM member.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
NASMM has two levels of membership. Someone who is just joining the association joins as a provisional member, which means that they are a startup company or they've been in business for a while, but are to the point of realizing that, oh, I should be a member of NASMM. Once you join and pay your membership dues, you are required to produce proof of insurance. You have to take and pass our four cornerstone courses. These courses do not teach you how to become a move manager. But these are four areas that as an organization, we want all of our members on the same page in terms of our ethics, safety, understanding the moving industry and understanding contracts and liability and risk. Then the members have to have a live professional website, not like a Facebook page or anything like that. And part of that reason is because that's really their most valuable marketing real estate.
Seniors today, older adults are very tech savvy and are only getting savvier for sure. They're going to be looking at your website and you can bet that their adult children or grandchildren are going to be looking at these websites. And once you meet those requirements, the Cornerstone courses, the website and the proof of insurance, then you become a professional member of NASMM and that's when you are listed on our Find to Move manager map. Beyond that, there is the opportunity for certification. It's not something that you can just take a couple of classes and say you're certified. The NASMM certification, which is called Senior Manager certified or SMMZ is the only one of its kind in the country because it requires both knowledge and experience and that requires additional coursework and application fee and proof of 40 invoiced senior moves.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Am I less than humble brag is that I was actually the first certified senior move manager in the country. Okay, enough bragging.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
As you were. Yes, as you were. And then beyond that, once your company has been in business for at least five years and you conducted a minimum of 250 moves, you can apply for NASMM's a plus accreditation, which is really the highest standard. It's best practices in both small business ownership and senior move management operations and client services. It is a rigorous process. Clear Home Solutions holds a plus accreditation.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
We are the first one in Los Angeles County. Sorry, more bragging.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
So these are companies that are really invested in best practices in organizational and client services. Management are really committed to their own professional development as well. So there's a lot of information on the NASMM website and those are easily noted. We know that there are plenty of people who are doing this but not necessarily doing it right, not necessarily insured.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
One of the great things is somebody's moving out of state or coming to one's area. We share jobs from one end to the other.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
That's a really big deal actually. I don't know about you Marty, but we're seeing it real increase across the country of long distance relocations.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Especially out of California. A lot of people are leaving California.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
We're seeing it everywhere and we're seeing people who've done it in 2020. They're moving back in 2022. So it's just people are on the move at every age.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
They really are. And we can help people who are younger, that's not a problem. But our specialty, it's just white glove treatment. When I or one of my colleagues is talking to a potential client and sometimes they're embarrassed to say we are talking to other companies, which I encourage get to know different companies to see who you feel most comfortable with. And they are key questions to ask. Number one, are they a member of NASMM? Number two, do they carry liability insurance? Number three is anyone who's going to be working with them from Clear Home Solutions or whatever company you're working with, is that person an employee who don't want subcontractors? That's very important because you want to make sure that they carry workers' comp.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Jennifer and I have talked about this for years. One of the main reasons a lot of companies that say they're move managers don't join NASMM, I think is the insurance requirement. We definitely believe insurance is absolutely a hallmark of professionalism and I do think some people, when they are making a decision based entirely on cost, a good part of that professionalism is past aside until something goes very wrong.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
All it takes is one slip from that uninsured move manager or some subcontractor they've brought in to create a lawsuit against you because they're not caring worker's comp and they want to sue somebody for the injury.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Penny wise and pound foolish as my dear old dad would say.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
So here's a story about why you really need to make sure that you ask those questions of any move manager you're considering hiring or anyone who's going to be in your home handling all your stuff. Because we get in the drawers. We find all kinds of delightful things that sometimes we have to be a bit discreet about. But I remember one lovely client, she was such a sweetheart, she got a recommendation from her pastor for a couple at their church who ostensibly did this sort of thing and would help her. So they'd help themselves to every single valuable in her home. It was horrifying. This was such a lovely woman and it was from her church, her place of worship. You assume that anybody from there you can trust. But apparently this is this couple's thing. They go from place of worship to place of worship and insinuate themselves and take advantage. It's awful. So you do want to make sure that it is a real bonafide company.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
That's one thing I hope more families understand as we head into our 21st year of the National Association of Senior and Specialty Move Managers, that the word gets out, that it is affordable, it's compassionate, expert service.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Thank you so much Jennifer and Mary Kay. Thank you for being here on How to Move Your Mom and helping to explain things with her early.

JENNIFER PICKETT:
Thanks for having.

MARY KAY BUYSSE:
Thanks for having us. We love to talk about move management.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It's a thing we all love to talk about our stories.
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom (and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward). Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.