022: That’s Probably Not a Picasso in Your Attic, But…: The Vital Work of Appraisers – Xiliary Twil

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
In my line of work as a senior move manager, we work with clients and help them with their treasures of a lifetime, along with all the other stuff that goes with it. People sometimes ask me, How much do you think all this is worth? When it comes to appraising people's treasures, our next guest is the expert that they want to turn to.
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom (and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward), provides in depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you. Xiliary Twil, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

Xiliary Twil:
It's a pleasure to be here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Let me tell you a little bit about Xiliary. Xiliary Twil founded Art Asset Management Group in 2009 as an accredited senior appraiser with the American Society of Appraisers. Xiliary serves as the valuation expert, as well as an art historian and an art collector. She successfully managed the business affairs of art galleries, private collections, and exhibited at international art fairs. So Xiliary, to start off, I wanted to ask you about your grandparents, but they had already passed by the time you were born, but you had a very big-

Xiliary Twil:
Family. My mother was one of 16 children, but not from the same parents. It was a blended family. And my father had six brothers and sisters. Right there, we have, what, 22 relatives.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Wow.

Xiliary Twil:
Who had children, so I had a lot of cousins. I was really blessed.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And what's your favorite memory?

Xiliary Twil:
My best memories are spending time with my aunts and uncles. A group of my aunts and uncles had bought an old house in this tiny little town of maybe 50 people, and there was no running water. You had to go to the outhouse if you wanted to go to the bathroom. There was a pump in the kitchen. We all slept in the same room. We had all these old brass beds, single beds that we all would sleep in. And it was a cacophony of snoring and noises and it was hysterical. It was really a lot of fun.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It was like a dormitory full of relatives.

Xiliary Twil:
Yeah, it was, and that was an amazing time.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Those sound like incredible memories. So let's now talk about yourself as an adult and the work that you do now. I describe what you do, but I'd rather have you specifically talk about your work and the services you offer.

Xiliary Twil:
We, Art Asset Management Group, are a boutique business. That means that what we do is custom designed for the client that I'm working with. We're valuation experts. We value personal property, and personal property includes everything that's tangible but not real estate. We don't value property or houses, but everything else we're capable of valuing. And we value for all intent and uses. That could be estate planning, it could be for a state tax purposes, it could be for insurance coverage, insurance claims, for charitable donations, it could be for a divorce. Anytime someone needs their assets valued that are personal property, not real estate, then we can be called in and do that valuation for them.
That's the basic premise of the business, but then we get involved in doing other projects. I work with one client who owns a former bank building. Two years ago we removed a 40 foot mosaic off of that building and three sculptures, and we donated them to Chapman University to the Hilbert Museum of California Art. And recently we just took a 40 foot stained glass window off the same building and we're in process of finding a home for that.
So there's times when I'm dealing with historical projects, I may be valuing large scale public art, which might be for a corporation's taxes. And then I'll do consulting and someone may have artwork that they want to sell, so I'll find out what is the best way to sell it, whether it be putting it up to auction or finding the gallery to consign it to or someone to buy it. So I act on my client's behalf on all of these different levels.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
I know it's very complicated, but you were just talking about determining where's the best place to try to sell something. How do you go about determining that?

Xiliary Twil:
I think it really depends on what the asset is. If you have a Picasso and you would like to sell it, depending on what it, is it a drawing? Or is it a painting? You would then determine is auction the best place? Or is it best to consign it? Or is it best to find someone to buy it privately? That is pretty easy. But then you get into the lower value works of art, which could be not a famous artist that is by someone that doesn't have an auction record. Then I have to determine is there a market for it? If there is, what is that? It could be a lesser known or lesser visible or lower priced auction house.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Let's be honest and realistic. If it's not a known artist, chances are it's better in an estate sale or something like that. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Xiliary Twil:
No, you're absolutely right. It's very difficult. I'm working on project right now. It's I think 95 works of art. They're in a corporation, but a lot of them have zero auction records. This is not going to the IRS, this is not going to court. There is certain situations where I will use a formula, this is the size, not a known artist, and boom, that's the price. But it's not easy. Even valuing expensive works of art is not always easy.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It just always goes up and down the scale. It's like any kind of a market, like the stock market, what have you, there are just times when certain artists are more valued than others.

Xiliary Twil:
I read all the art blogs. They are rediscovering paintings. Recently they found van Gogh's what they consider to be his first self portrait, because he still had his left ear. Because he was so poor, he painted on top of maybe another canvas or a piece of cardboard. And this museum was doing some restoration, they always x-ray to see what's underneath. This x-ray showed that there was a portrait underneath this, so now they're trying to figure out how are they going to separate the two successfully. There was I think a Matisse that was just discovered under another one of his paintings.
Now because of the progress that we have made with x-ray, the testing of materials, there's a whole company that tests paint fleck and they're able to date the paint. There's these new discoveries. They can now backdate a lot of artwork. They are finding that a lot of the Italian Renaissance paintings are not the school of, they were actually done by that artist.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Science is amazing.

Xiliary Twil:
Yeah, it is. People think creativity is art and then there's science. Without the science, you can't figure out the history of all of these works, especially ancient works.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
I focused on ancient history when I was in undergrad, so I have a deep appreciation of ancient Greek sculpture and Egyptian, and I always say, "The Romans copied the Greek, so I'm not as interested."

Xiliary Twil:
That's great.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
A little mundane fact about Marty. But that is extraordinary and science and creativity really do go together, because so many scientific discoveries are as a result of someone thinking creatively and outside the box. Also, the thing that I've learned about art, what little bit I know, is there are people, they have that artist eye. It's just something they were born with and/or developed. They can really see in proportions and in a way it's scientific the way they go about looking at something and taking that and expressing it through paint or a drawing.

Xiliary Twil:
Well, look at da Vinci, if you look at his notebooks, he was inventing airplanes back in the day, parachutes, all of these different things he invented, but he was a really incredible artist.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
They go together. This is why I say we need to teach creative arts in schools, because it's called creative problem solving for a reason. We need to develop the parts of my brain. Okay, stepping off my soap box. Now let's talk about the selling of items, because obviously when you have the Picasso in the attic, that obviously goes to a Sotheby's or a Christie's or some other large auction house, so that it gets top dollar. Well, we were using the example of Picasso. Is it a drawing, is it a print? Is it an original work? Can you describe why those are valued differently? So you have the original painting, there's only one that exist.

Xiliary Twil:
One of a kind, that's where the value is. In the one of the kind, which is a painting, let's say an oil on canvas, typically that will be in any category across the board, the highest value of the three. Then you get drop down to a work on paper, which could be an actual watercolor on paper, it could be pastel on paper. Now watercolor and ink is called painting on paper, so that actually is a painting, but it's on paper, but they're lesser valued. Canvas has always been deemed the most valuable.
The canvas is a lot more sturdy. A canvas will endure, it can last longer. Hence, it has value. It's not as fragile as a work on paper. Work on paper could age. It could burn, meaning if it's framed improperly, the edges get brown. It could get mold. That's what those little spots are on works on paper. When you see little brown dots, that's mold.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Oh.

Xiliary Twil:
If it's around the edge, that is where the paper interacted with the gassing, the formula, the scientific aspect of the paper and the cardboard that they used to use to back that drawing and the wood in the frame. They all interact and release this gas that physically burns, singes the edge of the paper.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Talk about science right there. Wow.

Xiliary Twil:
That is totally science.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Because you heard this the stuff on Antiques Roadshow, but they don't really explain it the way that you just did.

Xiliary Twil:
If you see something that has a lot of brown spots on the surface, that's called foxing and it's mold. And you can get it on books, you can get it on canvas, but that's very rare. The paper can be torn, so it's much more fragile. And so paintings have always been considered the top valued item. Then you have your works on paper, whether it's painting on paper, could be a drawing, and then the lowest level is a print. Now that is not always true because it depends what that artist's most popular medium is. Andy Warhol made a gazillion prints, and they're worth a lot, but his paintings will always get the top dollar. Contemporary artists paintings bring a lot of money. The prints bring a lot of money, but not the 20 million that a painting will.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Yeah, art prices have just gone through the roof. And the thing with prints, and I had to learn this, you'll see numbers by the signature, which you'll say 23/100. That means it's a 23rd print out of 100. Is that correct?

Xiliary Twil:
For the most part, Marty.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Oh, okay. Please explain.

Xiliary Twil:
Here's the deal. A contemporary artist that is primarily well known and published by one of the really top publishing houses, that is true, it is one through 100, let's say. But people don't realize that there is another set of prints that are assigned either letters or numbers. People like Dali had a Arabic numbered portfolio. It's like one through a 100. They never did only a hundred, it was like 250, 300, 500. Then they had Roman numeral impressions, so it was one through 300 using Roman numerals.
So all of a sudden you have 300 Roman, 300 Arabic, you could have 800 of that one image on the market. People go, "I spent $25,000 for my Leroy Neiman, why is it only worth 3000?" And people don't know that. And Dali was incorrigible, who knows how many he made out of one image.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
But I bet he made a lot of money that way. So-

Xiliary Twil:
I think that he did.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
... there you go. Thinking about how long it takes to create an original painting and people don't have an appreciation of this. It takes such a long time, months and months and sometimes years to get that painting. Just the way that makes it remarkable.

Xiliary Twil:
And artists go back in and work on it maybe over a course of years. Wayne Thiebaud, California artist, very famous who just died last year, would do that. Maybe he worked on something in 1977 and he might not have released it, so he would put two dates on it. He would put 1977/2021 because that's when he actually finished it. So artists do that.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
But that makes sense, especially when you're dealing with something that visual that you need to take a step back from it. Because you get so in the weeds with those little brush strokes, and you almost can't see the painting anymore. That's fascinating. What do you love about what you do?

Xiliary Twil:
I like to come in and make a plan and figure out what our course of action is going to be. So that's what I love about the business and I guess I like to feel needed. I've worked with you, Marty, and you go into these homes and the people don't know what they have. It's chaos, because no one has put in place a plan. It's a bad time to make a decision about the art that you have in your house.
Your spouse just died, your parents, someone just died, and now you got to deal with all this stuff. And so I'm an organized person, as you are, and I like making lists and helping people figure out what do we do with this? Do we bring in someone like you to inventory everything like we did in that one case? Then I value it and then we decide do we sell everything? Do we donate it? I like people to get things in order, and I think that's the biggest thrill. I'm an art historian. I barely made it out of college with that degree. What can I tell you, I wasn't a great student.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
But you are sure an expert now.

Xiliary Twil:
It's crazy. It's like how did this happen? But I just diligently worked on it and now I found that this is my niche. Helping people, applying my studies and in some cases I go to homes and look at the most incredible artwork that you would only see in a museum. So it's like having a private tour through a museum. That's another great part of my business.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
I always say with the business that I am where we go in and we work with people's treasures and determine if are they moving? Are they going to age place? Is it a clear out as we call it? You can get a sense of the life that was lived there and learn the history of the family through the objects. What do you wish people knew about what you do?

Xiliary Twil:
That's a good question. I just wish people understood. When people decide to get an appraiser, they don't realize the costs that are involved. A lot of people think it's like the Kelly Blue Book. You look to the Blue Book and we have the green top, whatever size it is, and it's that price, but it's not that at all.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It ain't a car.

Xiliary Twil:
It is not-

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It's not a car.

Xiliary Twil:
... a car. You have the year it was done. Is it in good condition? You have all these variables. It takes time and there's databases for certain things. But then if you're doing something for insurance coverage, a lot of times you have to call the gallery. That is a job at a gallery exclusively to answer appraiser questions. It's very complicated. And then you have criteria and standards that you have to follow when you're writing an appraisal report because it's a legal document. I work like an attorney. I work by the hour. It just depends what it is that I'm working on, how long it's going to take.
And I can't pull a number out of the atmosphere, particularly when I'm talking to the client, and they have no record of what they own. I will tell you Marty, there are so many people who did not keep any records. They didn't keep any invoices, they've never had it insured. Then I have to go and figure out, especially if it's not a known artist, who is this artist.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And this comes down to provenance. That's what you're talking about.

Xiliary Twil:
Exactly.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Can you describe what that is? And why it's needed?

Xiliary Twil:
I always ask people, do you have records of where it came from? So they inherit it from their parents. Do you know where they got it? Did they get it at a gallery in Palm Beach on Worth Avenue? Or did they get it from their parents? The provenance is the history of a work of art. It's the path that the art took to end up at its final destination, which is the owner that I'm appraising the art for.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And specifically that it is documented. It can't just be hearsay or somebody saying, "Oh, my dad told me that." You have to have the documentation, if it's valuable.

Xiliary Twil:
There is oral history involved-

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Oh!

Xiliary Twil:
... but nothing is better than a clear history. It came from so and so, it ended up in an auction house, than my parents bought it, and then it's been passed down. There is a company that's called Proper Provenance, and it's a young woman, I adore, who has developed a business to research provenances. Because, especially if you're dealing with works that might have issues because they were sold pre and during World War II.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
I was just going to bring that up. The whole issue with the Holocaust and the Nazi stealing the art.

Xiliary Twil:
And a lot of people sold their art for pennies, just so they could get a passport to get to some other country, whether it was Havana or China. The stories are very sad. The good thing is that there are laws in place now, and they don't have a time limit on them. They changed those laws, because now with so much information being shared on the internet and there's a lot of repatriation of artwork, it's not a 100%, some countries do not abide by the laws. A lot of artwork is being repatriated, but not everything. And the interesting thing is, Marty, is that the wealthy families who photographed their houses and they photographed the rooms, their living rooms, their dining rooms, and they photographed it with all the art in it.
And these were in catalogs and in books that the family had made, there black and white photographs. And that has really helped a lot of the scholars go back and say, "This house was photographed in 1935 and there's that van Gogh, there's that Klimpt on the wall. And that show that family owned those works of art. The photography has been a huge asset in making these discoveries.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
That's remarkable. I did not know about that. That's fascinating. What's the toughest part of your job?

Xiliary Twil:
I think the toughest part of my job is researching the values. For the most part, since I've been in the business for 42 years, I've been around a lot of art. Grew up with art. Used to be a director of two galleries. I've worked with a lot of the major artists in the world. But it's valuing it, because you can't just pull it out of the atmosphere. You actually have to do the research. You have to then present the value in a way that is understandable, that's clear, concise, makes sense. And you have to provide comparables to arrive at your value conclusion. And that's not always so easy.
It takes time, because you're actually researching. And then the time that takes to do a report, it's a legal document. And because it's a legal document, you have to be very careful in what it is that you put on paper. Let's say you're doing a divorce, so you come up with a value, but then the opposing person can also go have an appraisal done. So you have two different values. Then if they can't settle, the judge has the right to appoint a third appraiser.
In the Harry Macklowe case, who was big real estate developer in New York, same thing happened. He had a high appraisal, his wife had a low, or vice versa, they weren't even close. And the judge said, "We're not going to do the third one, you have to sell everything," which they did, "and you can split it." It was like $680 million or something. It was a lot of money. And so divorce is a difficult situation.
And then you have your charitable donation, that is really a legal document, that goes to the IRS. So if you are wrong, that report can be audited and you as well as your client can be responsible financially for the difference in value. I just wish that someone could do a big billboard internationally, that these are legal documents and it takes time to craft them, depending on what rabbit hole I go down in trying to get the information. I've had pieces that I've told the client, "These are not by the artists that your family said they were by."

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
That can't be fun.

Xiliary Twil:
I got to break the news that this is not by who they thought it was, and you will never be able to present it as that because it's just not true. We're not authenticators. But when it's so blatant, it's not by that artist.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And how can you tell that?

Xiliary Twil:
In many cases, I reach out to my colleagues that own galleries, not appraisers, but galleries that worked with that artist, whether living or dead. I show them the artwork and I have in the contract with my client that I have authority to present works to experts. I will have to do that sometimes, just because I don't feel that it's right. The signature is wonky. I'll dig deep trying to find all the signatures of one artist and something signed in blue ball point pen. Well, no, they didn't have that in 1920, I don't think.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Certainly not in 1870 or something like that.

Xiliary Twil:
Yeah, so things like that happen. It's really a lot of work. And I think too, Marty, people don't understand what being credentialed really means as an appraiser.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
I want to talk about that. I have issues within my profession, because you want to work with somebody who's certified in what we do and has accreditation in the industry. That's so important given that you could be valuing something that's worth several million dollars. You're a senior appraiser, accredited senior appraiser with the American Society of Appraisers. Now what kind of hoops do you have to jump through for that?

Xiliary Twil:
You have to go back to school, and you have to take courses that are appraisal study courses, so that's the start. Then you decide that you're going to become accredited, because in our association the top level is accredited. Then you have to actually take an exam. It's like a three hour art history exam.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
It's like a bar exam for appraisers.

Xiliary Twil:
Yeah, exactly. If you pass, and lots of people do not pass, you become accredited like I did.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
This brings me to another very important question. What questions should people be asking an appraiser when they're considering hiring them?

Xiliary Twil:
Are you accredited with American Society of Appraisers? Are you certified with the Appraisers Association of America or the International Society of Appraisers? Those are the three associations. Are you current with what's called USPAP, Uniform Standards of Appraisal Practice? That is something that is required by the IRS for you to have as well as being current with your credentials. Are you knowledgeable in this area that you're going to be appraising?
So if I have a great impressionist art collection, I would say, "How many impressions paintings have you appraised before? Is this your area of expertise?" If they're honest, they would say, "No, I've only appraised furniture." That's not the person you want to be hiring. People really need to investigate, because you're going to get a legal document and if that person doesn't know what they're doing, it's problematic for a lot of different reasons.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Chances are if somebody turns it around overnight, that's a problem, because they really haven't done the homework, because it sounds like appraising is a lot of homework.

Xiliary Twil:
It is. That's why I don't read,

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
For pleasure. Read for pleasure.

Xiliary Twil:
Yeah. She said, "I want you to join a book club." I said, "All I do is write thesises, thesi every day. All I do is I research. I write. I research. I write." That's what you do. You actually have to write term papers every day.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
I would think understanding the history of art is vital to being an art appraiser.

Xiliary Twil:
It is. I ran two galleries. That means I know how to buy, I know how to sell. I still to this day work at art fairs. I work in Art Miami every year. I was just in Chicago for the big art fair working that in Chicago.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And I just want to point out that they are not the ones on the corner or in the nearby-

Xiliary Twil:
No.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
... park. These are the major art gatherings, conventions, conferences, whatever you want to call it.

Xiliary Twil:
Good point.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
So let's talk about the older generation and the artwork they possess. What if they're aging in place or they're moving to assisted living or one partner is moving to assisted living or someone is passed, how does all that work?

Xiliary Twil:
It can become complicated, Marty. Most people have never inventoried their possessions. I would put that first on the list for anyone is inventory everything. Whether it's artwork, household contents like furniture, appliances.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Grab a camera, grab some video. If you've got kids, make it a project for the whole family. Have them document things in their room.

Xiliary Twil:
Good idea. And you can put it into an Excel spreadsheet or even just type it up on a list.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
And keep it out in the cloud. Because here in California we get fires, we get earthquakes, there are thefts, other places get flooding. You just never know what can happen.

Xiliary Twil:
I agree. If you don't do anything else, do that. Make a list and figure out what it is that you have. One of the things too is anytime you buy something, particularly art, save the receipt, and do a file of that artist. So let's say it's the Salvador Dali, make it a separate file with the invoice that you got. If there is an insurance schedule, put that into this art file. So when the time comes, you have a list that you made, you have files made for each artwork. That's a good starting point. But then you need to call somebody in to figure out what is this worth. You have to figure out what it is that you have before you start giving it away. Because that's what happens when you read those stories that someone bought a Whistler etching in a thrift store for $15, and they sold it for three million.
People get in a rush, get rid of this and this, and things are overlooked. So it does take some time, but it's better when the collector is still alive where you can ask questions. Sometimes people can't, because it's too late. Someone has died, someone has Alzheimer's, they are going to a care unit. When my mother was diagnosed with an aneurysm, she lived with severe migraines her entire life. My father had passed, I have a sister, we went through the entire house and made a list with the line down the middle who got what watch? I got the other watch. Who got the diamond this and diamond that? And we had a list. And my sister and I xeroxed it. We put the original in her safety deposit box. And when my mother passed, we had the list. It was really easy to determine what to do with everything.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
As you were saying earlier, someone you love passes, you're struck down by grief and yet everybody's asking you questions. You have to make major decisions, all in the course of a few weeks, or you're expected to. It's incredibly difficult. The simpler you can make it for those who will survive you, the kinder you are being.

Xiliary Twil:
I've been named art executor in some of my clients wills. So when one spouse or both are gone, they call me in to figure out what to do with the art. I'm working on one of those right now. When the first spouse died, we ultimately auctioned, so the surviving spouse could stay in her house, make sure that she had the money to have care. And she just passed away about a month ago and now we're working on the remaining art, what to do with it? I work with the attorney, the CPA, and the family in a case like that.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
That's fascinating. So I guess in the will they would have to distinguish you as the art executor, and then the person who's the executor of everything else. I had not heard of that before.

Xiliary Twil:
Yeah, it's helpful, especially because I'm familiar with the artwork. I might have sold them the artwork. I might have appraised it over the course of the years. So it makes things a lot easier. Of course, you always get people that think they can do it on their own. But for the most part, if people want to maximize the estate holdings, it's best to call in someone who has experience in art, not figured out on your own.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
That's beautifully put. Xiliary, I have learned so much during this discussion, so thank you very much for joining me.

Xiliary Twil:
It's been a pleasure as always, Marty. Thank you for inviting me today.

Marty Stevens-Heebner:
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom (and Still be on Speaking Terms Afterward.) Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.