025: Minimalism: How to Focus on What Really Matters – Zoe Kim

Marty Stevens-Heebner (00:00):
The word minimalism probably conjures up images of a monochromatic living room with one sofa, one table, and a single flower in a ceramic vase. Our next guest has a down to earth approach to simplifying your home, focusing on your own perspective and what matters to you, or maybe a parent who's moving. Her thousands of Facebook fans attest to just how embraceable her approach is, and I bet you'll become a fan too after this episode.

(00:31):
Moving your mom or your dad or yourself isn't just about moving things from one place to another. It is much more complicated than that, as are so many things having to do with later life. How to Move Your Mom and Still Be On Speaking Terms Afterward provides in-depth conversations with professionals, older adults, and their family members who share their stories with warmth, understanding, and humor. I'm your host, Marty Stevens-Heebner, and here you'll find answers to many of your questions as well as different perspectives that I hope will inform and inspire you.

(01:09):
I'm so excited to have Zoe Kim here. She's a renowned author, and she has an extraordinary approach to minimalism and truly is an expert. Thank you so much for being with me today, Zoe. I really appreciate it.

Zoe Kim (01:20):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (01:23):
Let me tell you a little bit more about Zoe. With 180,000 plus followers on Facebook, Zoe Kim and her company, Raising Simple, extols the benefits of minimalism for families, and that's also the name of her bestselling book, Minimalism for Families. And it's terrific.

(01:40):
Simplicity is good for us all, but for Zoe and her blended household of four kids and three step-kids, it's especially vital. Zoe doesn't just focus on the logistics of downsizing your space, she believes in developing a minimalist lifestyle through positive perspective changes as well as all those practical solutions she discusses in her book. In addition to all those wonderful kids, Zoe's married to Matt Paxton of PBS's Legacy List with Matt Paxton, a previous guest on How to Move Your Mom. And together, they make quite the insightful and hilarious pair. I'm not going to attest to this, they're very fun to be around. I always start out by asking what's your favorite memory of your grandparents?

Zoe Kim (02:23):
Oh, I love this. I actually lived with my grandparents during my high school years, and so I had quite a bit of time with them. And I really enjoyed cooking with them. My grandfather was first generation born Italian, and he would make homemade pasta and pies and the specialty Easter pie. And it's a Italian ricotta pie. I now make that with my children and reminisce and think back to those memories with them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (02:49):
You're making me hungry. I may have to come over to your house on Easter. I'll fly in. How were you drawn to this work that you do?

Zoe Kim (02:56):
11 years ago, I only had two children. And my now ex-husband was in the military, and he was deploying all the time, and we had to make a move not far, actually, that was not covered by the military because we decided to move to a different house. And I had to move without him, so it was just me and my two kids moving.

(03:16):
And I was packing up this stuff, boxes of things, and I'm like, "What is all of this? And why do I have this many clothes? I don't even like clothes shopping. How did all of this get here?" And in the same time span, I also wanted to begin wasting less in the kitchen so I got on Google and I found Bea Johnson, who is basically the zero waste guru. She has two kids and a husband. And I saw photos of her home and how simplified it was. And although my home is not as simple as hers, I just saw her house, and she has this amazing life, and I thought that's freedom right there, and I want that freedom.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (03:55):
Brilliant. I hate to think of you having to move with two little kids.

Zoe Kim (04:00):
That's how it all began. I just began peeling away layer after layer, which I like to call maybe an onion. Sometimes as you get down to the more sentimental things, you might end up crying like you do when you cut the onion.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (04:12):
That's a great comparison. It's true. Yes. That's wonderful. What inspired your unique approach to minimalism?

Zoe Kim (04:21):
Have you ever done the Enneagram, the Myers-Briggs personality test where-

Marty Stevens-Heebner (04:26):
Oh, ages ago.

Zoe Kim (04:27):
Okay. For all your listeners that might be into this, I am an ENFP, extroverted intuitive feeler. And I'm a P, which means I can't believe I was on time to your podcast because I'm usually late.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (04:41):
I'm probably a P too.

Zoe Kim (04:45):
But I feel like with that, some of my talents are being compassionate and one of the more open-minded personality types. I'm very non-judgmental and I want to meet you wherever you're at and help you get to the next step. Everybody is in a different place, everybody has different struggles. That's why when they say, "Oh, where should I start?" I feel like I want to ask questions because there's no one magic answer on where to start. Are there some guidelines and some helpful tips? Absolutely. But there's not one spot that's going to work for everybody. I feel like that is my gift; this compassionate, non-judgmental approach to help people simplify their life and make it better.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:23):
It's interesting because sometimes with my company, with Clear Home Solutions, we have an organizing job. And they've worked with a professional organizer before and stopped working with them because they were saying very alienating things like, "Why do you have all these? You've got to get rid of that. This is ugly. Let it go." And that's just not the way to approach it.

Zoe Kim (05:40):
That's very off-putting. And as soon as you start speaking like that, and I know this because I have seven kids, the wall goes up and not listening to you.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:48):
That's a really good point. Yep.

Zoe Kim (05:49):
You're not on my side. I need to protect myself from this situation, so my guard's up. And then they're going to be less open to the suggestions that you have to make.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (05:57):
This is a note to adult children who might be working with their parents. I know it's hard, having been there, but really be patient, find out what matters to them, and make it a positive experience. Don't start bossing your parents around, because all you'll end up hearing is, "Hey, I'm the parent here," because that's what they're used to, so be respectful.

Zoe Kim (06:17):
Yeah. Yeah. You've got me thinking. Another thing to do, for those that are simplifying with their parents, is, if it's possible, have them come over to your place first and tell them you need their help in simplifying because you want to make your space and your life better and you would just love it if they would come along and just help you say yay and nay and make those decisions. And then they're going to be open to you helping them.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (06:43):
That's amazing. What a great idea. Did you really just think of that?

Zoe Kim (06:47):
I do that with my kids. And with all respect and love, because I love elderly people, I had an amazing relationship with my grandparents, sometimes they're like kids.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (06:57):
Sometimes we're all like kids; let's face it.

Zoe Kim (06:59):
But as those situations turn and life goes on, sometimes we're stepping into our parents' life. And we have to remember it's more like guiding them, not dictating, "You can't keep this," because that's not going to work.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (07:11):
Got to be respectful. They've lived through so much, when you think about it. Becoming simplified definitely makes keeping yourself organized a lot easier because there's just not so much stuff to juggle.

Zoe Kim (07:23):
Absolutely. There is a quote on that, not my quote, think it's The Minimalist, "The easiest way to organize is to get rid of most of it." On that note, I am not innately an organized person at all. And that's something that comes as a big surprise to a lot of people. I took a poll on my Instagram one time. Most of the people who follow me are organized; they love to organize. To me, it's torture. I'm probably an organizer's dream, I would be their dream client where I don't have too much stuff. I am not organized by nature; that's exactly why I need less.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (07:56):
I wouldn't have thought that either. Actually, I was not innately organized. I had to learn how to be organized.

Zoe Kim (08:02):
And then how much time do you want to spend being organized and taking care of your stuff? And that was what was draining me. That's where the overwhelm came from. We're not made to care for so many things.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (08:14):
Since we're talking about just the volume of things that can be in a person's home, I found it really interesting in your book... I love this. As you see, I bookmarked, I highlighted. I loved it. Minimalism for Families. I highly recommend it. It's beautifully written. In it, you quote, a professional organizer named MJ Rosenthal who said that the average American home contains 300,000 items. That's mind boggling.

Zoe Kim (08:37):
Astonishing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (08:38):
I'm sure my staff would probably agree with that. Every single fork, every single little piece of jewelry, each lipstick, that's a-

Zoe Kim (08:50):
And to add on to that, those families, and I've been there, maybe I still have 300,000 because I have seven kids, we're still in the mindset that we need more. And that's the crazy part. We have so many things. We can't find things, we lose things, we get decision fatigue. We're overwhelmed.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (09:07):
One of the things that you espouse on your book that I also encourage with people who are going to do it on their own as opposed to working with a professional is create a time block. Do it for an hour. Especially if you're just starting out, don't say, "I'm going to do it all Saturday afternoon." You will never want to do it again if you do that. You mention some different kinds of ways of going about it, and you say the LUK method, which is-

Zoe Kim (09:31):
Love it, use it, know it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (09:32):
The LUK method, love it, use it, know it. And I frequently do friends, acquaintances and strangers. Different methods work with different people. And I can remember specifically one client who was... She thought she was a hoarder. She really wasn't. There was one room that had a lot of stuff. But that really worked with her because her emotional ties to people. And then sometimes we also just do keep, donate, trash. Whatever works for you in terms of your mindset, that's how you want to categorize things. And also, you talk about making it fun, like playing music.

Zoe Kim (10:02):
Yes, that can be a game changer for real. Get some ice tea, your favorite drink, put some music on. Give yourself 20 minutes, clean out a drawer. But my blanket advice to everybody on where to start is somewhere where they can start and complete the task in that one period of time. That feels motivating and not emotionally heavy. If you're motivated to do it and you can complete it in the amount of time you have, if you have 30 minutes, then do that because I want you to have the win. I don't want you to start doing something and feel overwhelmed and not complete it, because then it's not finished. And that's not a win, that's just another thing that you didn't get to. I'm speaking from experience here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (10:44):
And I totally agree with you. I've been there too. Yes.

Zoe Kim (10:46):
I am a royal procrastinator. I'll put it off. And that's why I cannot have too much stuff. I cannot do it.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (10:55):
I totally agree with you because I, at a point last year, had three conferences in three and a half weeks. I was essentially gone for a month. And I came home and I said, "I have too much stuff." I decided then and there that each day, I would find at least one thing to let go of. And that's been great. It's really made me feel good every single day. That's my goal, to get rid of one of my 300,000 items, or whatever I've got.

Zoe Kim (11:17):
There you go. And not bring anymore in, because then it doesn't count, Marty.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (11:23):
That's so true. Yeah. And then one of the things you talked about in the book is once you've simplified your life to the point where it's simplified for you, you can, especially with your kids, teach them if you're bringing something new in, you've got to let something go. I think you've done that with your children, right?

Zoe Kim (11:37):
I have. Otherwise, we would be drowning and all kinds of stuff. And I have a couple natural pack rats.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (11:44):
They're rebelling.

Zoe Kim (11:45):
Each one of our seven kids has their own cubby. And it's very interesting to open up each cubby and see what it looks like. It's almost like, okay, this is what your house might look like. We better get this under control. We better implement these guidelines a little more often.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (12:01):
It's good to have company too. And actually, one of the things that you inspired me to think of was that, especially with our older clients that we work with, I'm going to talk to my staff about when they're working with them, see if they want to listen to some music, play something that really gets them moving. Could be swing music. Discover swing music. It's great music. Or something from the '50s or what have you. But something that they really like that puts a smile on their face and makes them want to move and do things.

Zoe Kim (12:28):
Yes. I recommended that in my book because I had a photographer come out to my house to do family photos, and she played music while she was photographing, and I thought, this is brilliant.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (12:37):
It puts you at ease, it changes your energy level, all that great stuff. Talking about your kids, one of the things that I think is so helpful is the concept that you have of the capsule wardrobe.

Zoe Kim (12:48):
A capsule wardrobe is the collection of clothing narrowing your wardrobe down to your 30 best items. I created a capsule wardrobe for my children. And they have about 10 outfits all interchangeable; the shirt can go with any of the pants and vice versa. And if that's what they have in their closet, that's what they put on. And there's not all this other stuff to sort through. Out of season clothing is packed away, so it's just your capsule wardrobe for that season.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (13:14):
I also understand is how you and Matt got together. And the story with Matt was that his son was having such a hard time trying to pick out what to wear.

Zoe Kim (13:22):
His son was having a hard time with the overwhelm of everything in his closet, because not only did he have the clothes he wore, he had the clothes he didn't wear at all, then he had at a season clothing. And also, Matt was storing other stuff in his closet that wasn't his, so he was completely overwhelmed. And Matt read my book, and he tried it. He took everything out of the closet, only put back in the clothing that he wanted to wear, and he woke up the next day, and he came down, and he was so excited to show his dad. He was like, "Look, I'm all ready." No fighting, no battles. It's so much simpler.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (13:58):
It's so much simpler, especially for older adults when they're downsizing and maybe moving into assisted living or something like that. There are so many memories attached to clothing, but if it doesn't fit, you don't need it. And why not just drill down where you can make an easy decision and just get down to breakfast, meet up with your friends and all that?

Zoe Kim (14:16):
And so to follow up on that, tail end of that story, after he helped his son, he reached out to thank me on Instagram. And then we had a working relationship for a while, and then he moved in.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (14:27):
Things evolved, things evolved in a beautiful way. You mentioned how good Matt's son felt when he dressed himself in no time and it was really easy. The benefits of minimalism aren't just anecdotal, there's a real science behind it. And you mentioned that in your, again, wonderful book, Minimalism for Families. You mentioned a study that was done at the UCLA Center on Everyday Lives and Families. I got my master's at UCLA, and I didn't know that existed.

(14:56):
Forgive me, I'm just going to read back to you your own book. When we keep our environment cluttered, we are visually and emotionally distracted, and this creates stress and anxiety. In a study done by UCLA's Center on Everyday Lives and Families, a team of professional archeologists and anthropologists, which I find fascinating, and other social scientists systematically observed in recorded details of life at home for 32 dual-worker, middle class LA families between 2001 and 2004. The team discovered that managing a large volume of possessions was linked to elevated levels of stress hormones for mothers. In other words, the more clutter the piles up, the more anxious women feel. And apparently too, excess stuff can really affect the kids that way too. That's fascinating to me.

Zoe Kim (15:42):
I think that just highlights something that I see in my online community. The overwhelm that women and mothers feel from their homes is just debilitating.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (15:54):
It is frustrating for women because women, especially when they're kids, even when you're working professionally full-time, all the housework still mostly falls to you.

Zoe Kim (16:05):
Yep. Unless you marry the cleaning expert of the country named Matt Paxton, then I 100% agree with you. I feel for all those other women. I wish I could clone Matt.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (16:17):
And what's great is that I think Matt... And there are wonderful husbands like him, and fathers who really see that they're doing their part. They're not doing you a favor. It's just doing your part at home, guys. It's a good thing.

Zoe Kim (16:29):
We're not saying that every man is like that, but we are saying that we've had some experience with this. Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (16:36):
And you're younger than I am. My generation is still like that. Anyway, I love your idea of inviting them over to your home and doing the same thing; playing some music, showing them that you're having a good time. And I think it's a great idea to get stuff done. And it helps to have company.

Zoe Kim (16:53):
And they're going to know and feel that you're not just telling them what to do too. There are a lot of older people who don't like to feel like they're the only ones needing help.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (17:01):
True. You start to feel all the aches and pains. And maybe you get a chronic illness, maybe it can be managed, maybe it's a bit more serious. But there's that sense of control being taken away by your body and then by the culture at large. It's so hard. I think people feel, men and women who are older, is that their home should be something they can control. And when you do simplify, you actually are taking charge and control of your home.

Zoe Kim (17:28):
Exactly. And your time too. Not just physically what's in your home and the actual act of deciding, "Okay, this is my house, this is my stuff, I get to keep what stays and what goes." But you're also dictating what you're going to be doing with your time, which is not taking care of too much stuff. Did you know that I have a tiny house in my backyard and that my mom lives there? Yes.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (17:49):
Oh, tell me about that.

Zoe Kim (17:51):
When I built the house that we currently live in, I designed it and built it with an architect and a builder. I'm not a builder. But they were like, "You need a walk-in closet." And I was like, "Oh hell no, I don't."

Marty Stevens-Heebner (18:02):
Don't tempt me.

Zoe Kim (18:03):
Anyway, I built, I call it the tiny house, but it could be a guest house, cottage house. It's 498 square feet on foundation in my backyard for my mom; and that's where she lives. She has her own space. It has a bedroom, kitchen, bathroom, and a small living area.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (18:19):
That's great because she can live more simply in there. One of the things that I always tell clients is that you want to have a lot of light in the room, let the air circulate. If you have less stuff, there's more light, everybody can get around easily and it's not dangerous. Corners on tables and things like that are dangerous at any age, at any age. Trying to make sure there's enough room around them is so important.

Zoe Kim (18:42):
And my mom is very young. She actually still works full-time. She's a nurse anesthetist. We're ahead of the game here.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (18:48):
I just think it's so wonderful you built that home for your mom. And that's really a gift to her. And I want to talk about gifts because often, we encounter older adults who want to give things to their adult kids or their grandchildren. And the adult kids say, "I don't want it." Just say yes, and then it's yours and you can do with it what you want because now it's yours. Accept it with gratitude because they're giving it to you because they think it's really useful and that it might help you. Saying yes makes them happy, it keeps things moving forward, and I love that you wrote that in your book.

Zoe Kim (19:21):
There are certain people that gift giving is their love language, and so that's how they love is by giving gifts. What do you think, though, about the relationships where the parent comes over to the adult child's house and says, "Where is that gift I gave you?"

Marty Stevens-Heebner (19:37):
I get asked that a lot. And what I say is here's the thing, you need to gently tell them that, "I really appreciated that you gave that to me. I can't really make use of it. And I know you want it to be useful, so I gave it to a friend, donated it because I want it to go to somebody who's really going to cherish it as much as you did."

Zoe Kim (19:56):
I think that's excellent.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (19:57):
And before they can say anything else, redirect the conversation. "Doesn't that food smell good?" Or "Let's watch the ballgame. Oh, here come the kids." Something like that to redirect the energy.

Zoe Kim (20:08):
Also, on the gift giving topic, it's okay to let your family members know ahead of time that you're in the process of simplifying. You're not saying rudely, "Don't get me anything. We're going to have a fight if you do." It doesn't have to go there. What's more important, the stuff or the relationship? The relationship is more important, so you always want to do everything with respect. But it does go a long way for many people to let them know ahead of time that you are simplifying. And if that is the type of relationship where maybe you could give them a short list of things that you'd actually find useful and helpful and they would be happy to get you something on that list. Having those conversations ahead of time can save a lot of heartache.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (20:49):
That's so smart, especially at the holidays are when birthdays are coming along or if you've just moved into the neighborhood and you're going to have a housewarming or something like that. I love how you put in the book, your presence is our present. A wonderful way to put it so that they know presents aren't required, but some people really enjoy doing that.

Zoe Kim (21:07):
If you have a close family member and you're doing Christmas and you just have this influx of stuff, you can let them know and then give them ideas for practical experience gifts, consumables so that it's not so much pressure and they get to give you a gift.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (21:21):
Or you can ask them to donate to an organization in Louisville.

Zoe Kim (21:24):
Yeah, that's true.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (21:25):
Like for a birthday or something like that, or an anniversary. Overall, what's the toughest part of your job?

Zoe Kim (21:31):
The hardest part would be working online. I love to work in person with people. And I'm very hands-on and visual, so I miss that experience. I don't go into people's homes very often, and I mostly do everything online.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (21:47):
You're a busy mom, that's for sure.

Zoe Kim (21:49):
Yes, that's true too.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (21:51):
You got a lot going on. And plus, you have that incredible following on Facebook and Instagram. And your website is wonderful. And of course, it's very clear and simple. Go to raisingsimple.com.

Zoe Kim (22:03):
I'm actually having it redone soon, so I'm very excited. It's going to be amazing.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (22:07):
Oh, that's so great. Congratulations. Go visit raisingsimple.com or visit Zoe on Instagram. Again, it's Raising Simple; same thing with Facebook. And above all, read her book, Minimalism for Families, because I've been doing this for 10 years and I got so many great ideas out of it, so I really encourage your people to read that. It's wonderful.

Zoe Kim (22:26):
Wonderful.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (22:27):
Thank you so much for being here with me today, Zoe. I really appreciate it.

Zoe Kim (22:34):
Thank you so much for having me.

Marty Stevens-Heebner (22:34):
Thank you so much for listening to How to Move Your Mom and Still Be Speaking Terms Afterward. Please visit howtomoveyourmom.com for more information about this episode and for additional podcast episodes featuring other extraordinary guests and conversations. Until next time, this is your very grateful host, Marty Stevens-Heebner.